Something that has been bothering me more and more lately that is not news to most of us is the fact that our awesome signature tricks never get used if high score is the goal since ANY tweaked Super Uber is worth considerably more (especially All You Can Eat and Blackbird). Because Sig tricks are worth considerably less, most of us NEVER use these in competition since they are hurting our score. I thought it would be worth opening a thread to explore this topic and throw out some ideas on how we can fix this, IF we can fix this. I dont know how easy or hard it would be to tweak this as far as scoring mechanics go, but it would be SO nice if we could throw out our signature tricks during competition and actually use them.

Here are some ideas I had and possible issues with them. If anyone else has any ideas, please throw them out there and maybe we can figure out a way to solve this issue and at the same time not create a whole new problem of abusing signature tricks which we dont want either. Even if this is not realistic to incorporate in a patch with this game, at least it is something that can be fixed in the sequel (assuming and hoping we get one ).

1. Make the sig trick the highest scoring trick in the game.

Potential problems.........
-Sig trick would get abused at this point and loose its impact.
-Other?

2. Make the signature trick worth just as much as tweaked All You Can Eat and tweaked Blackbird

Potential problems.......
-The game would become easier since you now have 3 high scoring options instead of two.
-Other?

3. Make the sig trick worth as much as all other tweaked Super Ubers besides All You Can Eat and Blackbird

Potential problems..........
-The problem with this is you would NEVER opt for the sig trick on the big jumps (which is where it looks the coolest) since there are two other higher scoring options
-Other?

4. Make the sig trick worth as much or maybe even more compared to All You Can Eat and Blackbird BUT program the mechanics so you could ONLY do the sig trick after doing ~4 or more other tricks. This would keep the sig trick from being abused since you could not alternate it every other trick, but you could still throw it out there here and there during the course of a trick run. I dont see any downsides to this, but I dont know how easy this would be to incorporate at this point.

Potential problems......
-?

5. Signature trick hot spots similar to the old NBAJAM. I assume this would be completely unrealistic for this version of the game, but I still think sig trick hot spots spread randomly throughout the tracks on some of the bigger kickers where if you hit this icon (you would hit it just like it was a geotag or snowflake) your sig trick JUST for your next trick is worth the most points. Putting it right in front of big kickers would make you have to react and actually do your sig trick which would be fun. Again, this is an idea for a sequel if we were ever blessed with one.

Potential problems........
-?


Anybody else have any ideas so we could actually use our awesome sig tricks during competition?

According to mahkra, the sig trick is the third highest scoring tweaked super uber: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9829&hilit=scoring+system

As for what I'd like to see:
Spins, flips and any combination should be worth the same. The reasoning behind this is that the current system rewards pure front/backflips the most, and because of that that's all you see in high scoring trick runs. I think the best score should be given to the best looking run, and giving the player the option of variety could help those master runs look better.

All tricks worth the same. Same reasoning as above.

Bring back a time limit (and keep flow). Again, this is about trick runs looking good. Watch some trick master runs and you might start to notice a pattern... they don't like going down the mountain. Compare these two runs and tell me which looks better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Lh6cNBSCA&feature=player_embedded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4_uU6EZTSE&feature=player_embedded
Still, give players the option to do a time limitless trick run through Custom Events, since I know there's plenty of people who like this system.

Lastly, put in a longer duplicate trick penalty. My other suggestions encourage players to be diverse with their tricking, but this would reward it (or punish nondiversity, whichever you prefer).

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I'd suggest making the Signature worth more than all the other Super Ubers after a certain amount of airtime (like 2-2.5s). This way, the Signature would net you massive points on big jumps, but on normal/small jumps, the Signature wouldn't be advantageous. This makes sense since you can't finish the animation for the Signature with less than 2-3s of airtime anyway.

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[hipster] I liked Fall From Grace and Burnout BEFORE they lost the O2 requirement! [/hipster]
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Here is the way I understand it from his thread. The other 6 tweaked Super Ubers besides AYCE and BB are worth ~50% MORE than the sig trick which is how his chart shows it.........

Super Ubers - Better
(Tricks: Sidewinder, Submersible, Royal Flush, Stay Frosty, Huge In Europe, Cradle May Fall)
1 sec - 1,480 points
2 sec - 4,480 points
3 sec - 8,080 points
4 sec - 12,280 points
5 sec - 17,080 points
6 sec - 22,480 points
7 sec - 28,480 points
8 sec - 35,080 points
9 sec - 42,280 points
10 sec - 50,080 points

Signature Trick
1 sec - 2,960 points
2 sec - 8,960 points
3 sec - 16,160 points
4 sec - 24,560 points
5 sec - 34,160 points
6 sec - 44,960 points
7 sec - 56,960 points
8 sec - 70,160 points
9 sec - 84,560 points
10 sec - 100,160 points
* The signature trick animation only ends in a few different places unless it's forced to end early by landing, so these exact scores may never be seen.

Tweak Bonus
*Coming Soon! (Looks like tweaking roughly triples the score, but I haven't worked out anything exact.)

Once you triple the better super ubers, they are now ~50% higher as far as points go which is significant obviously.

From page 2 of his thread he also lists best to worst as far as tricks and scoring goes and the sig trick is #4.........

From the (admittedly quite limited) data I've collected so far, here's my best guess at the ranking of ubers, from best to worst:
1 - TWEAKED Blackbird / All You Can Eat
2 - TWEAKED Sidewinder / Royal Flush / Submersible / Stay Frosty / Huge In Europe / Cradle May Fall
3 - TWEAKED Skyscraper / Waaay Back / Checkin' the Nose / Sledgehammer
4 - (signature trick)
5 - Blackbird / All You Can Eat
6 - Sidewinder / Royal Flush / Submersible / Stay Frosty / Huge In Europe / Cradle May Fall
7 - Skyscraper / Waaay Back / Checkin' the Nose / Sledgehammer

From the first post top of page 4 in that thread...............

TLDR:
Long story short, though, tweaking often appears to roughly triple a score. Any tweaked super uber is better than a sig trick.

Unless I am reading his thread wrong, the sig trick is worth MUCH less than the better tweaked super ubers. The tweaked super ubers are worth ~50% more then the sig trick and tweaked AYCE and tweaked BB are worth even more then that. This brings me back to why I started this thread..........signature tricks are useless in competition since they are worth MUCH less then ANY tweaked super uber, especially AYCE and BB.










I like this idea as well!

Actually, I'm pretty sure all (tweaked) ubers are worth more than the sig trick. That's what I wrote in the scoring mechanics thread, at least.
(Edit: Looks like Todd said all this already.)

From what Batty said in the AMAA that Kav set up over on Reddit, the sig trick was supposed to be the highest-scoring trick; they didn't think about the fact that the sig trick can't be tweaked & therefore wouldn't be worth enough points to ever be used.

I'm certainly not the first one to suggest this kind of idea, but it'd be cool if different levels of tricks used different models to accumulate points, so 'basic' tricks are the best for grabs less than 1 second, 'better' tricks are the best for 1-2 second grabs, and 'best' tricks are the best for even longer grabs.

In the end, if you're playing the game to get the absolute top score and beat records, I don't see the point in changing anything. Making Sig tricks worth more than tweaked tricks will only make sig tricks annoying because instead of seeing All You Can Eat/Blackbird, you'll instead see Sig Trick, followed by a super uber, followed by a sig trick, etc.

I still do Sig Tricks all the time in online GEs for the hell of it. I can still get diamond when I change the tricks up thanks to the fact that Diamond is now the top 10% and not the top 1-2%.

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I really don't like options such as making sigs worth more after a certain time. That makes the system more ambiguous/nebulous/uncertain.

I think an arcade-style game like SSX needs basic easy-to-understand certainties at its core, such as:
- press this button > get more points

Rather than:
- press this button > get more points until you reach some nebulous point and then you would have been better off doing something else which normally isn't worth as much


If anything, I like this option. That way we would use three tricks instead of two, and we'd see the ubers.

I see your point, but personally, I'd rather see slight ambiguities in the scoring system than be forced to do the same 3 tricks for maximum points. I feel like trick variety is part of what makes SSX great; why have all these tricks if you're going to intentionally limit competitive players to a small selection of them?

Besides, I feel like most people can tell how big any given jump is going to be after playing a course a few times. It'll become natural to use the Signature on specific jumps.

_________________
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[hipster] I liked Fall From Grace and Burnout BEFORE they lost the O2 requirement! [/hipster]
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they should have it so eaach time you pull a trick, be it straight after you first pull it or only pull it twice in a run, that it's worth 2% less then last time (note i mean it's always worth 99% less then teh last time you pulled it not 100%, 98%, 96%, 94% etc. of original score.) so that if you pull a trick enough times it's then worth less then the bracket of tricks below it making them more varied the longer teh run goes on and adding an element of tactis in leaving one high scoring trick for just the biggest jumps so you can maximisepoints on them.

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If you having Death Zone problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 Assassins but Alex Moreau ain't one.

The signature trick should, naturally, be the most powerful trick. It's behind most the walls, so it should give out the highest reward.
Anything with a big payoff will get abused, and I don't see a problem with that.
This game has some big issues in the balance department, though.
Flow has ironically made trick events a spam fest to a degree where watching a record run is boring as sin.
It's like watching a coked up kangaroo in the process of ridding itself of a pair of less flattering shoes by the only means it knows how.

I like variety too. It sucked how in SSX3 if you really wanted to score big you were limited to a couple of monsters.

Honestly, if all two-button tricks were worth the same (and the sig), I'd wouldn't complain at all. I guess the X>B and B>X tricks are supposed to be the hardest to pull off for your thumb, but really, the physical difficulty ends up being very similar on all two button tricks (I actually find X>A and B>A the most awkward).

As for your other point, I get your point too - I think it's a case of different strokes for different folks.

Here's how I would like the system to be,
(Points per second taken from mahkra's scoring mechanics thread

Any 1 button grab
1 sec - 433 points
2 sec - 1,683 points
3 sec - 3,183 points
etc

Any double tap grab
1 sec - 740 points
2 sec - 2,240 points
3 sec - 4,040 points
etc

Any 1 button uber
1 sec - 650 points
2 sec - 2,525 points
3 sec - 4,775 points
etc

Any double tap uber
1 sec - 1,110 points
2 sec - 3,360 points
3 sec - 6,060 points
etc

Any super uber
1 sec - 867 points
2 sec - 3,367 points
3 sec - 6,367 points
etc

Any double tap super uber
1 sec - 1,480 points
2 sec - 4,480 points
3 sec - 8,080 points

Signature tricks
Worth the same points per second as any tweaked double tap uber.



The solution: Tweaked Blackbird and All you can eat, will no longer be the 2 highest scoring tricks. You will also be able to get the same amount of points by pulling a sig trick or any of the following tweaked double tap super ubers; Stay frosty, Royal flush, Sidewinder, Submersible, Huge In Europe and Cradle May Fall.

That's pretty close at how I would like the scoring system to be, Clawz.

But it doesn't really give you a reason to varify your tricks.

In that pov I think either a stricter duplicate rule (last 3/4 in stead of last 1) or a percental decrease in trickvalue could be the incentive we need to use all super ubers & sig. trick. Otherwise one could just keep doing the same 2 tricks as it is now.

Exactly. If you went with this system, you would have to reconfigure the duplicate trick penalty to something like having to do at least 4 unique tricks before any repeats. The sig trick could also be worth the most in this type of system.

I don't have much of a problem with people doing the same 2 tricks over and over, it's just annoying when you HAVE to, to get the most points. At least if they were all worth the same amount we would see some different tricks. All I see nowadays is Blackbird and All you can eat. I just want to be able to do the other double tap ubers without earning less for them.

What if it weren't nebulous? What if the "HUGE" & "MASSIVE" callouts marked the transition points?
< 1 second - no callout - "basic" grabs earn the most points
1-2 seconds - "HUGE" - "better" grabs earn the most
> 2 seconds - "MASSIVE" - "best" grabs earn the most

Keep in mind that the scoring would be pretty close on either side of the transition, so you really wouldn't need to be able to predict if you'll have .9 seconds of air or 1.1 seconds of air. You'd just need to be able to predict .5 seconds vs 2 seconds vs 3 or 4+ seconds.

(In theory, the length of animations before and after the grab is already supposed to make you favor easier tricks on the smallest jumps, but this doesn't always really matter in high-level play, because the extra points from the better trick more than make up for losing just a couple frames to a pre- or post-grab animation.)

Atm I'm regularly throwing in other super ubers than all you can eat/blackbird to be 100% sure not to do a duplicate but on the big jumps it's allways one of those. It's too bad the sig trick isn't being used on the big jumps. I hope if there's a next ssx the characters could be learning new sig tricks from other riders when their lvl rises. So we could do more of these big animated moves in one run.

Maybe if they make it so it's base points are low but scale a lot harder then blackbirds, then a sig trick would be worth more on the insane jumps making it preferable to use on big jumps since it would outscore a blackbird, but not on your regular drop. (so you'll need a jump where you can atleast 8 flips before the sig trick becomes better)

This would probably outdate scores already set, but they would be outdated be new level caps anyway so don't think that matters much.

I don't like how all the character specific things takes a backseat in this game, like the dances they do while when idle on the ground before a race and the low scoring sig tricks, those thing made it more personal but are basically non existing in explore or ge.

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This is a great idea as well. I just really want to be able to use the sig trick and not feel like I am robbing myself of points in the process which is the case now. Scaling the trick depending on air time makes sense IMO and would be a great way to get sig tricks useful for competition. This seems like a practical and realistic solution as far as a patch, but then again maybe not as I know nothing about game development.

I'd say making the score scaling of signature tricks considerably larger than regular ubers, but only the first couple of times you do it. The more you do it, the lower the scaling would become. That might stop the abusing of it and maintain the move appearing to be the most complex one the character can do. If the character can keep landing it without issue, then it kinda takes away the difficulty of the trick, ergo worth less points.

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Ooh, this is a pretty cool idea. Maybe like the first time you do a sig trick, it's double points or something. So you'd definitely want to save your sig trick and bust it out for the biggest air on the whole track, but you wouldn't just spam it on every big jump.

Yes! These are great ideas!

I think it's an interesting idea.

But my problem is not that the system is too simple. It's that I do TWO tricks and I never see 75% of the two-button ubers, and I've never seen anybody's sig trick in game (except Zoe's in the demo because we thought that's what you do).

The game is intensely competition-focussed so you're doing competion 99% of the time and building muscle memory of pressing X>B, B>X etc... So even if I try forcing myself to freeride, I'm still doing the same tricks subconsciously.

The team put all this work into tricks, and most of us never use them. Making all tweaked two-button tricks and sigs worth all the same would let everyone enjoy as much variety as they want.

They should have given a variety bonus. Like if you do 10 tricks in a row, and none the same, you get extra points. This bonus should be worth it to change up as many tricks as possible.

Or if you pull off a trick more then once it should give less points for every time you do that trick in a single combo. I think the Tony Hawk series had a scoring-system like that.

I'm actualy pretty tired using the same 2 ubertricks to get the highest scores. Some of the ubers look very nice like the one you get pressing triangle (ps3) but I never use it when I'm trying to score big... such a shame.

How in the flying cows did that person get his combo meter up so many times using one trick? Because of a mod? I seriously want to know.

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