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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:25 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi Re Virus:

Thanks for the compliments. Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Politics have always been dirty. If an elected official can get away with extorting millions of dollars from the taxpayers--and have union members prosecuted for their crimes--they will surely find a way to do so.

2. I agree with you that political candidates are basically "slim pickings." When election time comes around, it boils down to choosing "the lesser of the two evils."

3. I disagree with you partially that the media can always fool people. Yet, I agree with you, to a certain extent, that they can, and do, guile individuals. Look at campaign election committees. These organizations flood the airwaves with prevarications. And the MTV and VH1 followers--some of who have trouble identifying the capital of various states in the United States--believe every word they hear. As I said earlier, though, this would not be the case if more of this particular crowd actually read.

4. Unfortunately, you are correct about the voting system. People have to pick A, B, or C, which is some party that is neither Republican nor Democrat. Constituents who refrain from voting on the basis that all choices are bad "don't factor into the equation."

5. I have to disagree with you partially again the news media is responsible for the governed's poor choice of elected officials. Many individuals consider reading a waste of time, and, as a result, believe everything which the news media says. Others, though, read about current events, and are far less likely to be fooled by the news media.

I hope this helps. If you need clarification, please ask me to elaborate.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:25 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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QuotidianPerfection wrote:
5. I have to disagree with you partially again the news media is responsible for the governed's poor choice of elected officials. Many individuals consider reading a waste of time, and, as a result, believe everything which the news media says. Others, though, read about current events, and are far less likely to be fooled by the news media.

Read about current events from where, the Jew York Times? By the "news media" I also mean all the major newspapers. Those who read the NYT or WaPo are not any better informed than those who get the "news" about current events from the TV.

The Internet is the only free media. On the Internet you can find everything, from complete bullshit to hidden truths. On the mainstream media you only find an extremely limited range of "acceptable" discussion.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:06 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

1. I believe that the only way the individuals can attain an unbiased information to an event worthy of news coverage is to witness what transpired at that given moment in time. For instance, if police are threatening union members--and I witness it--then I have a direct, unfiltered account of what happened.

2. Since the option above is almost always impossible, due to the fact one has "to be in the right place in the right time" to be privy to the information described in the aforementioned paragraph, then the alternative is to attain knowledge through primary source material, such as personal diaries, journals and letters. I am of the firm belief, though, that, even if an individual witnessed a newsworthy happening, they ought to peruse through primary sources to ensure that they "get the whole story."

3. Afterwards, individuals ought to compare and contrast what various news sources say or write about a particular occurrence.

The final step involves drawing conclusions about a current event. To do so, one should take into account steps two and three--or, if possible, steps one, two, and three--when formulating a final opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:50 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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QuotidianPerfection wrote:
3. Afterwards, individuals ought to compare and contrast what various news sources say or write about a particular occurrence.

Yes, the ought to, but they won't (like I do), and the media counts on this. Truth filters through the media all the time, but it's only reported in one media outlet, by one journalist with primary source material. It is not reported on ABCNNBCBS/FOX or the NYT or WaPo, and does not become part of the narrative, the official story of events. This is how the media lies; they lie by omission, all the time, at all times. On of the biggest lies in history is that the West has a "free press".

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:16 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

I concur with you that the news media often distorts facts, then presents their editorializing of events to John and Jane Public as verities. Don't get me wrong--journalists who engage in the previous alluded practice lack scruples. Nevertheless, the listener and / or reader is blameworthy too. They SHOULD have enough common sense to know that one ought to look at all the facts available--and, at times, even request unavailable information (i.e., to rule out the possibility that the news media is not "hiding something")--before arriving at a conclusion. If people want to be lazy, and count on others to do their research for them, IT IS THEIR OWN FAULT if the news media is able to deceive them on a consistent basis.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:46 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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That's an OK argument; I can't disagree with that. But the point that there is no such thing as a "free press" in the West is of critical importance. The media leads nations to war, covers up unbelievable crimes such as false flag terrorism, Holocaust lies, and other disinformation which leads to war, makes warmongering criminals seem respectable, ensures a limited scope of discussion (always in favor of war), etc. The media is the enemy of the people, and if war against Iran breaks out, I hope that the Dan Rathers and the Bill O'Reillys will become the targets of real American patriots.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:10 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

Our views on the Holocaust are very much polarized.

Nevertheless, I agree that people must look beyond the news, and TV reporting, for an accurate account of current events.

I am sure that there are some journalists who would LOVE to exit their jobs, and, with the money that they have saved, start their own printing press. They could then use this as vehicle to avoid all the newspapers which censors articles that do not fit their liberal or conservative agendas. These writers could then print and dispense the truth about important issues free from threat of censorship.

Nevertheless, there are two problems with this scenario. The first difficulty with this alternative is that Americans, for the moment, are struggling economically. Sr., for example, might want to exit his job, and reveal what is really transpiring in Wisconsin, but then he probably cannot send Jr. to college. The second problem with this option is that virtually no one would read Sr.'s articles. They would do it on the basis that his newspaper lacks a "brand name." Some might assume that the newspaper which Sr. worked for relieved him from his post due to the fact that his writing is not of the caliber that one ought to expect from a journalist. The thought that the reverse was true, and irreconciable political differences were a major factor in Sr. quitting his vocation, probably will never cross their minds.

My fervent wish is that more people would take initiative, and discover for themselves "what is going on in the world." If the majority of human beings did this, then perhaps politics could no longer suffocate the truth.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:15 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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QuotidianPerfection wrote:
I am sure that there are some journalists who would LOVE to exit their jobs, and, with the money that they have saved, start their own printing press. They could then use this as vehicle to avoid all the newspapers which censors articles that do not fit their liberal or conservative agendas. These writers could then print and dispense the truth about important issues free from threat of censorship.

That is extremely naive... Many have tried, and all have been destroyed or reduced to a limited audience unable to expand. For example, American Free Press

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My fervent wish is that more people would take initiative, and discover for themselves "what is going on in the world." If the majority of human beings did this, then perhaps politics [and more importantly, the media!] could no longer suffocate the truth.

I hope you practice what you preach! Did you finish watching the 3 Zeitgeist documentary films?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:12 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

Yes, I did watch all three Zeitgeist documentary films. Nevertheless, I feel the Economic Eden which the third film tries to create is very unattainable. Invariably, something will destroy Paradise. This could happen in one of three ways. 1) One of the group leaders in the "community circle" becomes greedy, and designs a way to become a dictator. Oliver Cromwell, for instance, dissolved Parliament, and established a position of totalarian autonomy for himself. 2) Individuals who are disgruntled plan to rebel against the forces which keeps their government intact. In fact, people who belonged to colonies owned by England (i.e., the modern day United States) became incensed with the manner in which England was treating them, and, as a result, declared war on their mother country. 3) Highly intelligent machines can decide that humans are ineffective, unnecessary, and plot to exterminate all of them. This is what the Terminator movies are about.

One other thing: if people are being oppressed, then they have every right to rail against the despots placing them in that given state. This the ideal (not the reality) which the United States is foundationed upon.

Despite these drawbacks, I am still proud to be an American.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:45 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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I don't think you understand the concept of a resource-based economy or grasp the magnitude of the present systemic corruption of the money/debt/usury economy.

1) Greedy for what? There is virtually no incentive, if the standard of living is high enough. (BTW, Cromwell might be called the godfather of the current system, by letting the Jews back into England!)
2) There would be no reason for individuals to be "disgruntled". If such a case were to arise, the cause would be studied and remedied. (BTW, the real reason the colonies declared war on Britain was because of abusive taxation and usury.)
3) The idea of an advanced AI "turning against humans" is ridiculed by every AI engineer, and (to the best of my understanding) pure Hollywood fantasy.

The films point these things out, so I suggest you watch them again. Tell me the truth, did you watch all of them? Or only parts of each?

I have much, much more material (documentaries and books) if you are genuinely interested.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:24 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

I watched ALL of the documentaries.

I am not saying that capitalism failed to give rise to the exploitation and marginalization of other racial and / or ethnic groups--history has illustrated that the preceeding system lends itself to "Group A" taking advantage of "Group B." This is especially inherent in the practice of slavery (i.e., one race and / or ethnic group owning another), and the confiscation of land from Native Americans (one race and / or ethnic group cheating another out of land.)

However, even if our monetary system as we know it eventually becomes obsolete--and an economic Eden (albeit with economic limited resources)--the fiscal paradise will soon fall. Some individuals are very selfish, and will view natural resources as materials they can use to support a luxurious lifestyle. Unlike some people, who only use natural resources to ensure their survival, certain persons will extract a disproportional amount of the natural resources from the Economic Eden, and waste it on themselves. Since the third film explains that natural resources are not limitless, sooner or later the selfish individuals will take all the natural resources, and there will be almost nothing left to sustain the others. Individuals will then fight over the natural resources which are left. Invariably, this will lead to economic crisis, war, and in a worst-case scenario, chaos.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:26 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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So you see man as inherently selfish, greedy, evil (ill-intentioned). Fine. But it would be AI that decides all matters of resource management, not any one human. "Luxurious life"? Again you don't understand the prospect. Everyone on the planet should have and could have a "luxurious life" based on the resources available all over the planet. The money system prevents this from even being imaginable. In an AI-RBE there would be no such thing as luxury or poverty.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:02 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

My problem with AI is simply this: humans are imperfect, and prone to designing products which are flawed. For instance, just look at how many cars, toys, and strollers are recalled each year because they are potentially injurious to the individuals who use these pieces of equipment. This leads me to rationalize that, if humans are prone to error, they can possibly design AI which is faulty. This, in turn, might effectuate in AI acting destructively towards the humans that it was initially intended to help.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:41 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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The products are flawed because the only motive behind their creation is that of profit. It isn't human error, it's cutting costs and planned obsolescence policies. Plus, AI would be designed by the brightest minds, not wage slaves ruled by corporate bosses.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:01 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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If you want a more nuanced view that goes against the Zeitgeist style of economic system, you should read Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia and try to respond to what he has to say. Specifically the chapter on Distributive Justice.

Is it necessarily the case that somebody who wants to do something for profit is doing something for bad intentions? I recently bought tickets to see Crystal Castles in Toronto, and by some crazy turn of events, they ended up coming to my town. So I bought tickets for them here, and ended up selling my Toronto tickets online for about 10$ more than I payed for them.

Are you really going to say I committed an act of evil? Did I have evil intentions? My intention was to get a little extra pocket money so I could maybe buy something other than beans and rice for dinner. I would say it wasn't (perhaps I don't want to call myself evil, but I'm sure you've done something similar before too).
Maybe you might say that it was ok for me to do this because I'm a poor student trying to get by in the capitalist multitude. But, then we have to ask, is there a morally normative amount of money that somebody should be allowed to have? A maximum salary if you will? Such a number would be impossible to define. I think if anything, it's constraining our interests with moral imperatives, respect for persons, and the like, can make profitable transactions something that doesn't amount to an act of evil.
Once again, I'm more bouncing ideas to arrive at a more nuanced view. I'm a fairly anti-capitalist person, but I think that it is too much to say that all profit based action is doing it "for the wrong reasons".
If 1 million people are willing to pay Wilt Chamberlain 25 cents a piece to watch him play basketball, should he refuse the 250,000 dollars? By accepting is he being evil?

Ultimately what I'm trying to say is that, the truth is usually a nuanced version of a exaggerated claim. You are on the right track by saying there is something fishy about profit based motives, but to say they are all ill-intentioned is too much.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:30 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi doyle:

The third volume of the Zeitgeist films makes the case that AI is more effecient and less error-prone than human leadership. If this is, though, then why, according to their design, does a human need to be present in case "something goes wrong?"

I have three other additional problems about an environment governed by AI.

1. The film suggests that everyone would accept the idea of AI prior to it being placed in a position of communal rule. Some people, such as the Donald Trumps of the world, would reject the idea from the onset. These individuals would clearly be polarized to any design which forces them to cede any political, social, or economic control to a machine programmed to distribute wealth evenly.

2. The documentary assumes that people who place machines in an authoritative seat will not change their minds. We can see evidence of the previous illustration in politicians who promise to lower taxes, but, once elected, actually raise them, for the reason that it will allow citizens to pay their rediculous salaries. Perhaps, for example, a poor individual "jumps" at a society where economic equality exists, and is controlled by AI. Now, suppose they see all the available resources on the new economic Eden, and think: "Here's my chance to be rich! I never had the opportunity 'to live the life of luxury' before, but now, here's my chance!" What happens next? A clash with AI!

3. The movie implies that there will be a time that machines cannot fail. But, this does not seem to be the case. Each year, for instance, many machine shop workers are injured by faulty equipment. If the machines falter, then someone will eventually have to "pull the plug." And there just might be a greedy capitalist living in that machine-regulated society who looks for the day in which he or she can take all of his or her community's wealth. Now, who might acquire the communal riches if AI becomes defunct, and its surrounding environment is thrown into chaos. The greedy capitalist!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:12 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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doyle wrote:
Ultimately what I'm trying to say is that, the truth is usually a nuanced version of a exaggerated claim. You are on the right track by saying there is something fishy about profit based motives, but to say they are all ill-intentioned is too much.

I've never said anything like that, nor would anyone seriously make that argument. The point is that the profit-driven money system allows, in fact encourages, profit-making to all else (eventually to the exclusion of human needs).

QuotidianPerfection wrote:
The third volume of the Zeitgeist films makes the case that AI is more effecient and less error-prone than human leadership. If this is, though, then why, according to their design, does a human need to be present in case "something goes wrong?"

Because AI emulates human intelligence, and therefore cannot be as perfect as human intelligence. AI does not understand (in the human conscious sense) what it is doing, it only performs tasks with much greater precision, at faster speed, etc.

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1. The film suggests that everyone would accept the idea of AI prior to it being placed in a position of communal rule. Some people, such as the Donald Trumps of the world, would reject the idea from the onset. These individuals would clearly be polarized to any design which forces them to cede any political, social, or economic control to a machine programmed to distribute wealth evenly.

This is not in question, but beyond the point. Getting rid of the system (or transitioning from it as some optimists would have it) isn't going to happen tomorrow, and probably won't ever happen. We are far from that, as most of us can't even identify the rulers of the system due to a lifetime of conditioning. (BTW, I like how you pointed to Donald Trump, one of the few non-Jewish American billionaires.)

Quote:
2. The documentary assumes that people who place machines in an authoritative seat will not change their minds. We can see evidence of the previous illustration in politicians who promise to lower taxes, but, once elected, actually raise them, for the reason that it will allow citizens to pay their rediculous salaries. Perhaps, for example, a poor individual "jumps" at a society where economic equality exists, and is controlled by AI. Now, suppose they see all the available resources on the new economic Eden, and think: "Here's my chance to be rich! I never had the opportunity 'to live the life of luxury' before, but now, here's my chance!" What happens next? A clash with AI!

To be rich, how? How does the concept of "being rich" make any sense whatsoever in the AI-RBE that the Venus Project proposes? A clash with AI? Are you thinking about Terminator again? So long as the vast majority of people are well educated, any selfish individual or megalomaniacal group can be restrained in a number of ways. For example, every city could have a sealed gun storage room for citizens to break into in an (unlikely but always unpredictable) emergency.

Quote:
3. The movie implies that there will be a time that machines cannot fail. But, this does not seem to be the case. Each year, for instance, many machine shop workers are injured by faulty equipment. If the machines falter, then someone will eventually have to "pull the plug." And there just might be a greedy capitalist living in that machine-regulated society who looks for the day in which he or she can take all of his or her community's wealth. Now, who might acquire the communal riches if AI becomes defunct, and its surrounding environment is thrown into chaos. The greedy capitalist!

Machines do fail, which is why a degree of human supervision is necessary.

Capitalist? There is no money or personal property. A "resource-capitalist" isn't a viable concept since you can't take physical possession of most resources.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:37 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

Here's some questions for you, topics which the third volume of the Zeitgeist films failed to specifically address. All of the following deal with how machine-run societies will deal with natural disasters.

1. In the event of a natural disaster--such as the recent earthquake in Japan, which measured 9.0 on the Richter Scale--what steps are needed to rebuild the ruined community?

2. An additional, yet related concern, is that a natural disaster will trigger a malfunction in machines ruling a particular society, and, as a result, will causes them to "go ballistic," and "turn on humans." How can a community safeguard against that threat?

3. Finally, while natural disasters are occuring, people opposed to "the natural order of things" typically loot and "raise hell." If the machines are malfunctioning, and few people are trained to deal with these culprits, how will society protect itself against these predators?

I am eager to hear "your side of the story."


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:00 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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1. In the event of a natural disaster--such as the recent earthquake in Japan, which measured 9.0 on the Richter Scale--what steps are needed to rebuild the ruined community?

We would drop nanobots that would self-replicate into whatever they need to become: roads, bridges, etc. Hahaha. Obviously it wouldn't be that different from how it is now, but without the apathetic aspect of the cultural degradation and without the inconvenience of airplane travel, it seems likely that people from around the world would volunteer (much moreso than now) to help the victims of natural disasters.

But more importantly, with the profit-driven money system out of the picture, talent and effort could be put into preventing natural disasters. For one there would be no nuclear power plants, much less in earthquake-prone areas, nor would there be cities below sea level (like New Orleans). Japan already has a large number of preventative measures against earthquakes (measures which I'm not familiar with), as evidenced by the many high-magnitude quakes that have hit the island and done little damage compared to far lower-magnitude ones elsewhere (e.g. Haiti).

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2. An additional, yet related concern, is that a natural disaster triggers a malfunction in machines ruling a particular society, and, as a result, causes them to "go ballistic," and "turn on humans." How can a community safeguard against that threat?

As I explained earlier, that threat exists only in your imagination! A machine (which is a computer, which is a calculator) either works, works deficiently, or doesn't work; it doesn't re-program itself to do complex tasks it's not designed to do (such as killing humans because x or y and z).

Quote:
3. Finally, while natural disasters are occuring, people opposed to "the natural order of things" typically loot and "raise hell." If the machines are malfunctioning, and few people are trained to deal with these culprits, how will society protect itself against these predators?

Why would this occur when the motive behind it, namely deprivation, is no longer a factor? And I don't think this looting occured in Japan, btw. Guess why it happened in New Orleans and Haiti.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:15 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

Thanks for the prompt response.

Here's another hypothetical scenario. Suppose terrorists from Earth who despise this new Edenic Planet attack it from outer space. How does the citizens of the new Paradisical Planet protect their territory from individuals who seek its destruction? Would that not call for a space program capable of addressing this aforementioned concern? (The third volume of the Zeitgeist films never recognizes the issue highlighted above as a problem.)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:02 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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... w... w... what??

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:09 am  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

Let me clarify my statement. The third volume of the Zeitgeist documentaries might discuss a space program, but the film never discusses (i.e., in detail) how it will be achieved.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:06 am  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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That doesn't clarify your statement at all! :heh

You are concerned that "terrorists form Earth" might "attack the Earth from outer space"...

You are a clever joker aren't you?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:38 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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Hi RE Virus:

Suppose there are only two planets which humans can inhabit: Earth and the new Earth (i.e., as discussed in the Venus project.) Wouldn't it be more humane to permit individuals who dislike the social, political, and economic system of the new Earth to emigrate to Earth? (We are assuming that such persons will not travel to Earth with the intention of gathering a militia, and waging war on the new Earth.)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:57 pm  Post subject: Re: Wisconsin's Proposed Anti-Union Bill Is Laughable  
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You have me almost rolling on the floor... So you think the Venus Project is about colonizing another planet?

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