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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:00 am  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Location: United States
Hi sparks:

Here are some facts regarding salvation.

1. As Harold Camping explains, no one, before they are saved, has any desire to obey what that the Bible teaches in its entirety. Hence, if certain individials do worship God, they do so in a manner which is displeasing to Him.

2. According to Camping, after individuals receive God's grace, they have an intense desire to do God's will. The result is that these persons will worship God in a manner of which He approves.

3. People are not turned away from Heaven nor are they thrown into Hell. As Camping informs us, the Bible uses the term Hell as a metaphorical expression for the complete annihilation of one's body and soul. Presently, there are deceased believers who have ascended in Heaven. Such persons have already received their new souls while they were alive. These people are waiting until May 21, 2011 to receive their glorified spiritual bodies. On May 21, 2011, Christ will rapture all the remaining believers, who, too, have already received their new souls. On May 21, 2011, all believers will be given glorified spiritual bodies, and will lead a perpetual existence from that day forth.

If you are interested in pleading for your salvation in a Biblically acceptable way, then you should read the information included in the following link: http://www.timehasanend.org/public/thae_ch13.html.


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:57 am  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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What are you planning on doing for your last days? I'm genuinely interested in how somebody would spend their last days. Any places you want to go to? Any people you want to see? Anything you want to experience?

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:42 am  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi doyle:

I am becoming increasingly disinterested in worldly things, which the Bible calls "mammon." I plan on spending the days before May 21, 2011 (i.e., Judgment Day) begging to God that I might not be destroyed on May 21, 2011. Rather, I hope, on that day, that the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will rapture me so that I can experience perpetual spiritual bliss. It is also my fervent wish that God might save others who are in jeopardy of facing God's wrath on Judgment Day.

Does that mean that I am planning to look upon the world contemptously? If I pursued that avenue, I would be behaving myself in a way which is contrary to what the Bible teaches. The Bible instructs everyone to serve others, as well as to act in a humble fashion.

From a personal perspective, I hope that no one faces God's wrath on May 21, 2011. God, as Harold Camping points out, does not enjoy impugning humans for their sins, which is why, after foreseeing that humanity would rebel against Him, chose to preordain certain individuals for salvation. However, if God absolved the entire human race of their sins, that would illustrate that God is not just. God has to condemn members of the human race to show that He keeps His Word.

Now, some people will probably will find the idea of selective redemption appalling. Yet, Chris McCann, a Family Radio Bible instructor, notes that God did not give the rebellious angels a chance at redemption. Nevertheless, He elected a fraction of the human race to be saved. McCann finds it interesting that, on the one hand, people find God's elective process unfair for humans, but perfectly just for fallen angels. (I cannot locate the precise source at this time, but I know it was discussed on a Vimeo clip at the following site: http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/ebible_video.html.)

So, how do I plan to spend my remaining days before May 21, 2011? The answer is twofold: 1) praying that I might become saved, and 2) praying that God might spare others from annihilation.

As Harold Camping says at the end of Open Forum--a program on Family Radio where listeners call in, and ask questions about the Bible--"May the Lord richly bless you."


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:25 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:04 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi crispncrunchy:

The Bible says that one should not worship any other gods than God. What does this mean? Well, aside from the obvious denotation, namely, that one should not worship pagan gods, it also has an important connotation: specifically, that one should NEVER, as Harold Camping implied during a previous Open Forum broadcast, put any pleasure of his or her or life on the same pedestal as God.

Hence, playing any SSX game in moderation is okay. However, if one, for example, spends more time trying to hit 1.7 M+ on M2M than studying the Bible, then one is guilty of deifying the importance of SSX3, while, simultaneously, diminishing the importance of the true God. When I took an intrinsic look at what I valued in life, I discovered that, I, too, was guilty of this sin. The Bible clearly states that humans cannot serve God and mammon (i.e., worldly things); they must to either serve God, or lust after material goods.

So, here is my advice: have fun playing your SSX games. Yet, never forget that God is more important than everything else in this world, and ought to be worshipped in such a way.

As Harold Camping says at the end of every Open Forum broadcast, "May the Lord richly bless you."


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:56 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:14 am
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Location: Canada
Do you believe in free will?

If everything is pre-determined. We have no freedom to sin or not to sin. We need freedom for punishment to be justified. If I can't but do what is determined for me, then what is he punishing me for? Existing? It would be more just for God not to create a sinner like me. God wilfully created someone he knew would go to hell. Isn't there a lack of justice in that sense?

I wrote a paper this year critiquing Leibniz's theodicy (defending the justice of God) that you should read. It's about how pre-determination destroys our freedom unless we have a God that isn't absolutely perfect. Freedom is directly in tension with Omnipotence and omnibenevolence. Unless there is a way to preserve freedom under a calvinist system then we either have to get rid of predetermination (meaning that we do have a choice for our actions and somewhat preserving our freedom), or get rid of omnibenevolence (that God does not always act justly).

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:55 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi doyle:

I believe in predestination.

Arminius offered the following illustration: Christians may think that they possess agency. God knew, though, everything that people in the world would do prior to its creation. He then foresaw humanity's downfall, and elected every individual which He would have mercy upon. Hence, if one believes in free will, it is, from Arminius' viewpoint, merely an illusion.

Even scientists, such as Sir Isaac Newton (i.e., a Non-Trinitarian Puritan) and Stephen W. Hawking (i.e., a staunch proponent of evolutionary theory), wrote materials supporting the idea of fatalism.

I hope this answers your question.

As Harold Camping says at the end of every Open Forum broadcast, "May the Lord richly bless you."


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:03 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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What I mean to ask is. If we can't do any differently than what we do, we can't really be held responsible for it. Wouldn't it be more just for God not to create all these people that will miss out on eternal life? Or is that essentially what happens if you aren't saved, you are sent to a state of like non-existence, much like an atheist might think of death... ?

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:49 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi doyle:

I will clarify my statement.

God does not preordain individuals to behave in a certain way. Rather, He knows in advance how people will conduct themselves. Sadly, God foresaw that all of His creations would rebel against Him. Yet, God could not abort the creation process; to do so would be to renege on His Word. Since human beings chose, of their own free will, to disobey God, God had every right to destroy the body and soul of every human being on Judgment Day. Yet, God spared some individuals. Unfortunately, God could not spare all people. If God did not punish some individuals, then that would make Him guilty of not following His Word. Hence, God is just in electing a sample of people for salvation; he could have condemned the entire human race to destruction.

Nevertheless, the unsaved do not, as Harold Camping explains, face perpetual physical and emotional torture in Hell. Rather, the unsaved will begin dying on Earth, body and soul, on May 21, 2011. Some will face months of physical and emotional suffering (i.e., Hell on Earth). The last unsaved individual will perish on October 21, 2011. On that date, as the Book of Revelations says, God will destroy the universe by fire. When the unsaved die, they will never be conscious of anything again. However, the Earth will consist of a mass of burning corpses.

I hope I answered your questions.

As Harold Camping says at the end of every Open Forum broadcast, "May the Lord richly bless you."


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 9:02 am  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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This Harold Camping sounds like a swell guy!


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 9:58 am  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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doyle wrote:
If I can't but do what is determined for me, then what is he punishing me for? Existing?.


And theres the rub.

QP: If I read you correctly, and we are all still here on October 31st (ie the world isn't burning and we're having a conversation on this forum) - You will have been saved, but our souls will be anihilated (not saved) - will there be any need at that point to 'follow god'? (as you are already likely assured a place in heaven), or will he expect you to keep following? OR will you not know if you are saved untill you actually die?

Don't worry about other peoples thoughts when answering this, tell me what you feel/think.

And sincerely, I hope you will be saved.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:52 am  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Hi sparks:

Thank you. I hope that all members of Merqury City will find eternal happiness through Christ Jesus.

1. The previous alluded to bliss, though, can only occur if an unsaved individual accepts the fact that ONLY God can elect individuals for salvation.

2. God is no longer saving individuals who go to Church.

3. Nevertheless, God is saving people that read the Bible or hear the Word of God.

Now, I will answer your second question: should Harold Camping get the date of Judgment wrong (which is unlikely to happen), I would not give up on Christianity. Also, as Camping points out, former unsaved persons have experienced dramatic behavioral changes in their lives once the Holy Spirit "indwells" them. In order for this to happen, as Camping notes, Christ had to die on the cross, and rise from the dead. This begs the following question: do we have any physical evidence that Christ dwelt on Earth? Well, scientists have recently discovered a burial shroud which they suspect belongs to Christ. I will add that a corpse was not found inside the shroud. Why? Because Christ rose from the dead. This constitutes proof that the Earth operates on Christian morality rather than on godless principles. God is simply permitting wickedness to permeate the Earth since He will soon destroy it. After that time, our universe will be infinitely cursed by God.

Furthermore, if Camping is incorrect, then he will probably become "the laughing stock" of the media. Yet, what if Camping's timeline is accurate? Then the world is trouble. In my opinion, it is better to err on the side of caution than to face God's wrath on Judgment Day.

Lastly, you asked the following question: how do people know when they are saved? Well, as Harold Camping points out, such individuals "have an ongoing desire to do the will of God." If you are unsure whether or not you are saved, page 53 (PDF page 59) of Camping's book, entitled "I Hope God Will Save Me" should help. Camping references Biblical verses which describes the mindset of a saved individual. Here is the link to Camping's book: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/ihope/ihgwsm.pdf.

As Camping says at the end of every Open Forum broadcast, "May the Lord richly bless you."

Hi Khalpz:

I do not understand whether you are using the word "swell" to imply that 1) Camping is a pleasant person or 2) Camping is an unpleasant individual.

Personally, I do not care if you perceive Camping as pleasant or unpleasant. (I am not trying to be rude--I am merely insinuating that everyone has a right to his or her opinions.) I just hope you become saved, and are raptured, along with all the other true believers.

Thanks, though, for your input.

As Camping says at the end of every Open Forum broadcast, "May the Lord richly bless you."

P.S. For those interested in how one should cry to God for mercy, follow the link to the following video, entitled "Take With You Words," and lectured by Chris McCann: http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/ebible_video.html.


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:33 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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doyle wrote:
What I mean to ask is. If we can't do any differently than what we do, we can't really be held responsible for it. Wouldn't it be more just for God not to create all these people that will miss out on eternal life? Or is that essentially what happens if you aren't saved, you are sent to a state of like non-existence, much like an atheist might think of death... ?

God gave you free will first, then you sinned and rebelled against Him, then he condemned you. That he can see the future in present time doesn't change the timeline of events. Besides, if you had the superpowers that God has, I don't think you'd have the same sense of justice as us mortals.

QP wrote:
God is simply permitting wickedness to permeate the Earth since He will soon destroy it. After that time, our universe will be infinitely cursed by God.

How can you, given your free will, call this God a benevolent God?

QP, you didn't answer my question... Since you don't go to church, I want to know what version of the Bible you use. KJV, NIV, Scofield?

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:23 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi RE Virus:

I use the King James Bible. Here is the link to it: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/.

Now, you asked the following q


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:23 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi RE Virus:

I apologize for posting twice. I hit the wrong button(s) on my computer. Please disregard the first post.

I use the King James Bible. Here is the link to it: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/.

Now, you asked the following question: how can one consider God just when He elects to save some while chosing to destroy others? The answer is simple: Adam and Eve, decided, of their OWN VOLITION, to rebel against God. Moreover, Harold Camping pointed out a passage in the Bible (I cannot remember which one) which states that any male and female placed under the same set of circumstances that Adam and were in would make the same choice that the first man and woman made. Of course, God had foreknowledge that the Edenic duo would fail His trial. Yet, God left the Edenic duo to "their own devices," and allowed the Edenic duo to disobey His orders not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. As a result, the entire human race was doomed.

Fortunately, God elected some individuals for salvation. However, God could not save everyone: doing so would mean that God does not honor His Word. I can compare the aforementioned concept to a policing experiment which I read about when I was taking a law course as an undergraduate in college. I vaguely remember the experiment. However, I do know that police officers who participated in the study were required to arrest some criminals while "letting others off the hook." While I forgot the reasons for the study, or the outcome of the experiment, I believe that the experiment provides an illustration of election. Truthfully, everyone deserved to be arrested. Nevertheless, some individuals who broke the law were "given a break" by police officers who participated in the study. This is probably the best example that I can give of predestination.

As Camping says at the end of every Open Forum broadcast, "May the Lord richly bless you."


Last edited by QuotidianPerfection on Tue May 10, 2011 6:06 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:17 am  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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QuotidianPerfection wrote:
Of course, God had foreknowledge that the Edenic duo would fail His trial. Yet, God left the Edenic duo to "their own devices," and allowed the Edenic duo to disobey His orders not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. As a result, the entire human race was doomed.

You make the human race (well in fact the way Camping describes it the entire universe) seem like God's little folly. Create something ideal, build in a flaw, watch what happens for a few millennia (or a few billion years depending on whether you are a creationist or not) and then trash it all except for some tiny tiny tiny fraction (144,000/6 billion). For what purpose? I find it cruel. Your God does not fit my image of a higher power. My higher power cares for me, wants what is best for me. Your higher power says, jump through all these hoops and maybe just maybe you might be good enough for eternal life. Oh and you can feel anxious about whether you will make it for 70 odd years, because the alternative is eternal pain and anguish in hell. Hahaha! I find that sick, a psychopathic mentality that should be cared for in nutcase ward. The more you reveal of this Camping guy's writing the more insane it gets to me.

Part of me thinks that you are a fraud and that you are playing a game with everyone here.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:40 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi crispncrunchy:

I am no "fraud." In fact, I often check the Bible to ensure that Harold Camping's teachings are not heretical. As of now, I believe that his explication of the Bible is accurate.

If my posts were part of some "game," wouldn't it be easier to employ divide and conquer tactics--and pit person against person--until all Merqury City members involved in this particular discussion display emnity towards their fellow posters? This IS NOT my intention. I am just worried about whether I am a saved or an unsaved person. I am also trying to obey the command of Ezekiel 33:3, which instructs me to warn people about Judgment Day, which WILL transpire on May 21, 2011: "If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people." In sum, I hope that everyone will be raptured on May 21, 2011. Unfortunately, this will not happen.

My belief in fatalism, rather than free will, perturbs certain individuals. Specifically, opponents of predestination dislike the hitherto alluded to idea for the following reason: if I am fated to act in a benevolent or malevolent fashion, then why am I adjudicated by God according to my righteousness or wickedness? If God made decisions for humankind, then humans would have no control over how they acted. If this were the case, then persons could argue that, since God programmed them to behave in a particular manner, they cannot be held acountable for their decisions. It would also mean that God, juristically speaking, would no have right to reward the righteous with immortality or punish the wicked by destroying them, both body and soul.

Predetermination, though, does not work in this manner. God does not design people so some will behave sinfully while others act virtuously. Rather, He permits humans to make choices, and either rewards or punishes individuals according to the choices that they make, even though God had foresight that all human beings would rebel against Him. Hence, God had the right to subject the entire human race to annihilation on Judgment Day.

As Camping points out, the unsaved who die do not face eternal torment in a place called Hell. In fact, after unsaved individuals die, they are never conscious of anything again. Yes, some unsaved persons on the day of Judgment might face months of anguish, but, after that, these people will be aware of nothing. On Judgment Day, the bodies of the unsaved will be desecrated, but they will have no knowledge of it.

Also, I am doing my best to stay on topic. The purpose of this thread was to engage in a philosophical discussion about "the meaning of life." Am I wrong, crispncrunchy, if I believe that true happiness lies not in Earth, but in the hereafter, as stated numerous times in the Bible? Have I ever, when developing my argument, addressed a poster in a condescending manner, or made accusations without knowing what the true intention of a given poster was? I am proud to say no. I have never judged another person harshly because his or her viewpoint was different than mine. In doing so, I kept the Biblical commandment not to judge other people.

Furthermore, I want to point out that I am an extremely nice person, the last person who looks for internet fights.

One last thing, crispncrunchy: I forgive you for the comments that you made about me in your last post.

As Camping says at the end of every Open Forum broadcast, "My the Lord richly bless you."


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 3:50 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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I am glad that you are not a fraud.

Because I find it hard to conceive your particular brand of Christianity I have wondered whether your postings are really what you feel or a ruse to get others to react. In other threads you have professed an inclination to take a position purely for interesting discussion, especially when it comes to secular matters and that is pretty much a game. In your response I feel that your interpretation of game is pretty narrow; in that there needs to be a winner. Many games are a process where the reward is the process. For example, if I go to see friends to play card games, talk and laugh, I don't feel like a loser if I didn't win the games of cards.

I am not accusing you of being judgemental of others in this discussion, nor do I actually think you are and I don't think I said that I think you are. The game that I accused you of playing is the process type, where the pleasure is in the doing not the winning. Logically you could still be playing the game while 100% believing in what you put forward. Therein lies the fault in my judgement - that I assumed you did not believe in what you profess. I will admit to that. I also suggest that you think about the enjoyment that you gain from the process of debate. You don't need to tell me or the forum, I suggest you talk to God about it in your prayers.

You have every right to your beliefs as I do to mine. Despite the significant differences in our beliefs, I try not to be judgemental of you. However I am not going to restrain myself from critical discussion of God and the various religious interpretations of him.

I'm deeply interested in the discussion of "the meaning of life" because I have recently come to the realisation that if I am to get closer to serenity then I need to follow a more spiritual path. I prefer not use the word God (unless used as an acronym for Good Orderly Direction) but I prefer the term higher power. As I stated in my previous post my higher power must be benevolent and doesn't provide me with concepts like judgement day, hell or death by fire which I should live in fear of.

I am deeply cynical of most religions, particularly Judeo-Christian-Islamic variety and their righteous claims to being correct about the creation of life & the universe, their claim to have set down the ethical blueprint for human behaviour and the claim that theirs is the one and only god. Throughout history so many proponents of religious beliefs have waged brutal wars against anyone who threatens or questions their power base. I could go on at great length about the many illogical, hypocritical, pious, elitist teachings and behaviours of organised religion, but basically it just becomes a rant because I don't really seek to change religion. I have developed my stance on religion over many years and I am comfortable with it.

I am not looking for religion, I am looking for spirituality. At this stage of my journey I know many things that my higher power is not. I have come to realise that one of the best ways of gaining serenity is to help others without any expectation of gain or as you would say serve others and be humble. I just can't quite connect it to the judgement day you describe in your posts. The whole situation you describe does not seem serene to me.

My reality is that finding my higher power is a journey. I accept that I may never find the answer and that my interpretation of my higher power will change with my growth if understanding. It is about the process not the outcome.

And then I hop onto Facebook and a friend posted this. Just what I needed.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:26 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi crispncrunchy:

I apologize for misjudging you. Please forgive me.

You are correct to point out that discussions over the topic of religion often lead to heated debates. After all, religious extremists have tortured and killed members of a different religion simply because the former faith construed the latter faith as heretical.

If you want your Higher Power to have any affect on humanity, He or She or It must be able to hold human beings accountable for their actions. If the Higher Power does not have this type of jurisdiction, humankind will do whatever they want, irrespective if their behavior is moral or immoral.

By the way, I listened to Tim Minchin's poem, entitled "Storm," on YouTube. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

As Harold Camping says at the end of every Open Forum broadcast, "May the Lord richly bless you."


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 12:01 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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I can't take the pressure. I'm going to end it on May 20.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 12:13 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Don't give in Khalpz... there is always Jazz

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 1:12 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi Khalpz and crispncrunchy:

Until Judgment Day arrives, or until one dies, there is always hope that a person will become saved. The Bible, as individuals on Family Radio point out, reminds us of this wonderful truth. Here is the link which addresses the aforementioned topic: http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/ebible_video.html. Scroll down, and click on the lecture "Don't Give Up!," written and delivered by Chris McCann.

As Harold Camping says at the end of every Open Forum broadcast, "May the Lord richly bless you."


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 1:00 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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There is no hope any more. I'm sorry, but this is something I must do.


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 1:21 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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Hi Khalpz:

There is always hope. Family Radio illustrates that redemption is possible at any time while a person is still living or before May 21, 2011. For example, in the New Testament, Harold Camping talks about one of the thiefs crucified alongside Jesus. After initially mocking Jesus, he asks Jesus for forgiveness. Jesus completely forgives him, and promises him eternal happiness in the hereafter.

While it is true this thief was one of God's elect, he had no way of knowing this. Even today, no one knows whether or not Jesus plans to save them. So why not cry out to God for mercy today? You just might be one of God's elect.


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 1:24 pm  Post subject: Re: The meaning of life  
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It's a good thing belief does not matter!

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