Check out Political Ponerology by Andrew Lobaczewski. I'd say it's a must-read book, especially for QP.

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Hi RE Virus:

Tnank you for the bibliographical suggestion. I'll read the book whenever time permits.

For those of you really interested in the afterlife (or the rapture), though, I recommend reading the following material, which is written by Harold Camping:

1. Judgment Day: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/judgment/judgment.html.

2. I Hope God Will Save Me: http://www.familyradio.com/PDFS/ihgwsm_en.pdf.

3. First Principles of Bible Study: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/study/study_contents.html.

Please remember that one can only find complete happiness in the afterlife.

One should also bear in mind that there are only 17 days left to find the happiness alluded to above.

Why 17 days QP?

I was educated by Jesuits and the concept of heaven related to me seems boring, just saying. I like the grittiness of life to me the pursuit of perfection is an unhealthy obsession.

I was chewed up and spat out by religion so don't expect me to read your suggestions QP.

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42

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Hi crispncrunchy:

You are free to read the links if you wish. If you feel uncomfortable, though, in reading conservative Christian literature, then you have every right to refuse to read the material which I provided herein. Of course, God knows how we will behave before we act, so any belief in free will is purely an illusion.

If you are interested on why the rapture will occur on May 21, 2011, though, I recommended at least browsing through the link to Judgment Day which I have provided in my previous post. It explains how Harold Camping arrived at that particular date.

You may wonder how all of the preceding information relates to the meaning of life. Well, according to the Bible, the real teleological aim of life is to ascertain, by the mercy of Jesus Christ, perpetual spiritual life. In other words, while children of God (i.e., saved individuals) will only have limited happiness in the secular sphere, they will experience unlimited bliss in the spiritual realm.

One more thing: humans cannot be perfect. We are all sinful by nature. It is, as Harold Camping, John Calvin, and Martin Luther points out, only God's grace that saves people.

Can God be Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent simultaneously? Some would argue not; that they are mutually exclusive.

Omniscient - all knowing
Omnipotent - all powerful
Omnipresent - be everywhere at all times

Will you be disappointed if Harold Camping got it wrong?

How do you reconcile that Christianity states that there is only one god - their one. Whereas there are many religions that have a different god.

Are you of the opinion that God created the universe? And if as the physicists theorise the big bang is the beginning of time how did god exist before them? And how did god acquire the knowledge to create the immensely complex entity that the universe is? Or do you believe that the universe is hogwash? Just asking, I'd like to know what you think about these questions.

Yes Kubi it could be 42. That's how many seconds I microwave the milk for my coffee every morning. That has meaning to me and coffee provides me the energy to get into the day.

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I will have to try that, as I usually microwave it for about 50-80 seconds and it tends to get too hot.

Ahem...

QP, you were always bizarre, but a believer in imminent Rapture? That's surprising. What will you say 17 days from now if it doesn't happen?

How many will be saved, 144,000? What will happen to everyone else? Are you saying that I will die in 17 days? Damn...

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Hi RE Virus:

Personally, I do not know whom God will save. I am a follower of Calvinist philosophy. Calvin divides humanity into two groups: the elect and the retrobate. The elect are those whom God has predestined to save (i.e., 144,000 people) from His wrath and reward with everlasting spiritual life. (The number 144,000 is a symbolic number, not a literal statistic. I am unsure, though, about what that number symbolizes.) The retrobate refers to individuals whom God does not elect to save from His judgment. God will condemn these people.

As Harold Camping has pointed out, humans will not suffer eternally in Hell. Instead, those left on the Earth between May 21, 2011 and October 21, 2011 will have to contend with temporary physical and mental anguish. After October 21, 2011, according to Camping, our entire universe will be destroyed by fire. (Note: Kubi should read Judgment Day, written by Camping, which explains why Armeggedon is May 21, 2011, and not May 24, 2011.)

Now, to answer crispncrunchy questions:

1. I think it is always better to be cautious when we are warned about Judgment Day. Suppose Camping's date is correct. If this is the case, then the unsaved in the world are in big trouble.
2. I do not dislike people who practice a different religion. The Bible warns against Christians who judge others, and promises that violators of this policy will be judged themselves. However, the Bible also says that "False gods and false prophets will come with signs and wonders" to attempt to fool believers. These dual culprits, identified with dominion of Satan, will have an easy time pursuading the unsaved--through certain "magical works"--that other gods exist beside God. Christians, though, are not to contemn these guiled individuals. We, instead, are to present the truth to them. If it is God's plan, then, something wonderful could transpire--they might become saved.
3. I don't really believe in evolution. The intracracy of our universe suggests that the random design of the cosmos is just not possible. Lately, for instance, scientists argued that all of ten plagues that occured when Ramsees II was living could be scientifically explained. However, they fail to answer the following question: who designed the universe, and controls physics? The answer, of course, is God.

When I, in other discussions, talk about the big bang, I do it for argument's sake, even though I am staunch supporter of creation theory. From a practical perspective, there is just as much evidence to support creation as there is to support evolution. Archeologists, for example have discovered both Noah's Ark and the dead sea scrolls. Recently, some individuals think that they have found Christ's burial shroud. Yes, dinosaur bones, certain fossilized tree stumps, and items execavated from oceanic blue holes do seem to suggest that the Earth has been around for millions of years when measured via radio carbon dating. But, my question to you is as follows: how accurate is radio carbon dating?

My greatest objection to evolution, though, is the suggestion that we evolved from lower species. If that is so, humans would just kill each other to survive, and would not think a second about behaving in a scrupulous manner.

I will conclude my commentary by saying that, despite my strong religious beliefs, I care about everyone, regardless of their race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or religion. This world has too much hate in it. Perhaps, if individuals are more tolerant of one another, then the "enlightened" ones can help the "unenlightened" ones see the real goal in life: to be one of those elected by God to celebrate a perpetual spiritual existence.

One last thing: if Camping's date is wrong, I will post the following message: "I apologize to everyone for getting the date of Judgment Day wrong." Then, we will just "move on" as usual.

It is my sincere hope that everyone may find happiness through Christ Jesus.

Kubi shouldn't read shit, he is 11 years old you freak! Just kidding, but let his parents do the brainwashing, will ya?

QP, does your bible say "Scofield Reference" on the side? What do you think of John Hagee, Pat Robertson, and the other dispensationalist leaders?

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Hi RE Virus:

I am not trying to force anyone to accept my Calvinist ideas. (Sometimes, I forget that Kubi is 11 years old.)

Personally, I am not a follower of any of the preachers which you named because they still place their faith in churches. Nevertheless, Camping has shown, rather pursuasively, that the Church Age is over. The only way that people can be saved today is either by reading the Bible or by hearing the Word of God. From 1988 onward, as Camping has noted, God has removed His Holy Spirit from the churches.

Please note that I am just sharing my religious convictions with others. Although I believe that the ultimate purpose of life is procure eternal life in the hereafter through Jesus Christ, people are free to accept or reject what I say. Contrary to what you might think, I do not go door to door, and "shove my religion in other people's faces."

If you are uncomfortable in debating the religous meaning of life, then we can always go back to discussing the secular meaning of life.

Little correction. Oh, and 42

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Hi Kubi:

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Let's just say we disagree when the world will end.

By the way, how do you define "the meaning of life?" I am interested to hear your opinion on this matter.

I thought God was all loving, benevolent etc. I wonder if you have considered how many children have been traumatised by this image of God; the old testament Yaweh, the Irish fire & brimstone, the "you will rot in hell unless..." type of God

Been there done that and survived so far, it goes by various names. The most applicable to me are addiction, obsession, compulsion, perfectionism and procrastination.

Can I ask how you plan to spend your remaining days on this mortal coil? Praying and asking forgiveness for your sins or trying to get that elusive 1.8 million on LT? I wonder how God views your spending precious time playing SSX? He always knew you were going play SSX anyway. Will he view your love of SSX favourably when it comes to selecting that elite 144,000. Anyway he knows already doesn't he.

Possibly including you. As for me, I do know that I am going to die someday. I have zero control over it. If I love myself, I will be able to love those around me and as far as I'm concerned I have achieved meaning in my life. If I am consumed by a ball of fire, I'm gonna die pretty quick, there might be a bit of pain but there will be nothing I can do about it.

You say... ...but when you say... you state that they are "insidiously cunning in attaining a goal; crafty or artful deceivers; duplicitous" (to quote dictionary.com) and you imply that they are wrong. You know when I posed my question I wasn't thinking so much of medieval Sorcery and Witchcraft but more of the other major religions, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism & Judaism. Do you consider that the Christian-Islamic-Judea god is essentially that same god? And have you reflected on the fact that the 3 religions claim this god as their own and that their god is the one and only god?

I wasn't talking about Biology, I was talking about physics...
I realise now that you are a dyed in the wool creationist/intelligent design adherent. There I was assuming you would be one of those Christians who believe that God set off the universe & waited for all the wonderful processes that scientists are discovering and getting to understand. Please don't assume that scientists are trying to find out who controls physics, they are too busy using physics to explain phenomena; much like religion has traditionally done. This to me is the core reason why religious people have so much antagonism toward science - hey get off my cloud.

While I firmly disagree with you, I don't have much reason to debate this with you as we are both very unlikely to change our beliefs and I don't see the expenditure of my energy worthwhile.

Carbon dating is accurate enough for Archaeologists to confidently state they have discovered Noah's ark and the Dead Sea scrolls.

Why? Do you perceive 'lower species' as dirty/disgusting for something?Where did you get that assumption from? The evidence says otherwise. Humans kill each other and kill other animals way way way more than any other species on this planet. It is rare that another species kills it's own and the level at which a hunter species kills another animal is nothing compared to what humans do. I suggest you do some research on this matter.

Esteemable goals whether you believe in god or not. Do not assume that atheists are not spiritual people. Sadly most people assume we aren't.

BTW - You didn't address my question about god's Omnis. I'm interested in your opinion, I see it as an interesting logical conundrum.

Perhaps we should also discuss the origins of ethics, before Judgement Day. There isn't much time left.

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Hahaha, yeah I also find it amusing that QP is doing mundane things when he's expecting Armageddon in 15 days.


It's the same Abrahamic God, but two distinct mindsets came out of it: the Christian New Testament-centered/Islamic view of a loving god, and the Christian Old Testament-centered/Jewish view of a hateful god. This is the most important distinction that can be, and must be, made. It's the root of all evil stemming from religion, at least in the West.


There are atheists and there are the ultra-rationalist pseudo-skeptic militant atheist cult members. The latter are more religious, and far more dangerous, than most Christians.


QP, does your bible say "Scofield Reference" on the side?

Who or what do you see as Gog and Magog?

If you don't go to church or listed to religious authorities, why believe in Calvin? Who taught you Calvinism? Also, what do you think of Luther?

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RE: 144,000.

I wondered back in the 80's at school about the 144,000. What happens to the rest of them?, as surely those places are filled up by now. The Jehovah's W's current belief allows for the rest of them to get a conditional pass by:

"According to the Witnesses, the first of the 144,000 were raised to heaven from their graves in 1918 and others who die after 1918 immediately go to heaven when they die. Nearly 11,000 Witnesses worldwide—an increase of more than 2,000 since 1995—claim to be of the 144,000 anointed. The portion of the 144,000 who are still living (the "remnant") are considered to constitute a faithful and discreet slave with teaching authority over Jehovah's Witnesses, although in practice all doctrinal decisions are made by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, which is said to represent the "slave class"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144000_(number)

And yes, I know you're not a JW.


We all found it in SSX3, first track isn't it? But thank you anyway.

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Hi sparks:

Here is a post by arthurgraph (i.e., Arthur Owiti), entitled May 21st Opaclypto: Harold Camping Gets Support from Science and Astronomy, which suggests that Camping's predictions have scientific merit. Here is the link to the post: http://arthurgraph.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/may-21-st-apocalypto-harold-camping-gets-support-from-science-and-astronomy-2/.

I hope that, on May 21st, 2011, I will be raptured along with all the other saved individuals. For me, the purpose in life is to receive, via God's grace, eternal spiritual life. It is my fervent hope that God might bless each person with the previously mentioned gift.

I suspect, though, that "the meaning in life" is defined differently by each individual. This particular thread is quite subjective in nature, and, consequently, will lead to varying answers.

Hi crispncrunchy:

God knows everything which will transpire in my life, including the top SSX3 freestyle and race scores that I will receive.

As of now, I am profoundly perturbed by the prospect that I will be subject to judgment on May 21, 2011. I am therefore praying for God's guidance.

This brings us to a different juncture: how can I say that I do not dislike those whose religious persuasions are different from mine, and, in the same breath, suggest that my religion is the only true religion? This can be easily answered. As Camping has explained in a previous Open Forum broadcast, "love thy neighbour" means wishing that God might save an individual, even if his or her religious convictions do not coincide with that of a true believer. Only God has the right to judge people.

You correctly imply that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God. The difference between Christians, however, and Jews and Muslims, is the former religion believes in the Blessed Trinity (i.e., three People in One God), whereas the former groups do not.

So, this brings up the following query: how is one to treat Jews and Muslims? First and foremost, the Bible is very clear in the New Testament that one is to respect the fact that God that originally made a covenant with the Jews. As Christ points out, though, Christians ought not to emulate the self-righteous conduct of some Jewish sects, such as the Pharisees. While Islam is never mentioned in the Bible, a Muslim might be predestined by God to be saved, so believers (i.e., saved persons) should not treat members of this given religion with emnity.

Insofar as radio carbon dating is concerned, "Is Carbon Dating Reliable?," written by Helen Fryman, suggests that using carbon dating to establish events which transpired over 4,000 years ago yields inaccurate outcomes: http://carm.org/carbon-dating. Hence, while people might question the validity of what archeologists think to be Noah's Ark, the authenticity of the Dead Sea scrolls cannot be questioned. Here is a link to the dating of the scrolls if you are interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dating_the_Dead_Sea_Scrolls. The preceding article also implies that evolutionary claims made by scientists are untrustworthy.

Now, we shall turn to my argument that humans are, by nature, unscrupulous. I stand by that assertion. All one has to do is to look politics, Wall Street, and the attrocities committed at Gitmo to understand that humans will do anything--even kill another person--to feed their political, economic, or jingoistic ambitions.

You also asked a good question, crispncrunchy: are atheists spiritual? Perhaps atheists are using a different definition than the Bible to define the word in question. Yet, the Bible is forthright in claiming that those who do not believe in God are spiritually dead, and are in desparate need of salvation.

I believe that God is omniscient (i.e., He knows everything), omnipotent (i.e., He wields the greatest amount of power), and omnipresent (i.e., He is in the heart of every true believer). How do we explain this? We can't. Soren Kierkegaard terms this phenomenon as a "leap of faith." Here is some information regarding the preceding philosophy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard.

Lastly, if you are interested in what the Bible says about ethics and eschatology, visit http://www.familyradio.com/index2.html and http://www.wecanknow.com/.

I will conclude my remarks by quoting Camping: "May the Lord richly bless you."

Hi RE Virus:

I will answer your two questions.

1. Gog and Magog, as Harold Camping explained in a previous Open Forum broadcast, refers to the individuals which God does not plan to save from judgment.

2. I used to believe in churches, because, up until 1988, the Bible commanded all believers to attend church. Camping wrote a short pamphlet, entitled "No One Knows the Day or the Hour?," which explains why believers should no longer attend church: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/nomanknows/nomanknows.html. He wrote a book, too, which deals with the same subject, which is called The End of the Church Age...and After: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/church/church_contents.html. I have not read the book yet, but plan to do so over the next couple of days.

As a related point, in Luther and Calvin's time, people could still be saved through the church. Yet, as Camping points out in The First Principles of Bible Study, churches, even then, were intended to reinforce--AND NEVER ALTER--the words of the Bible. Here is a link to Camping's First Principles of Bible Study: http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/study/study_contents.html.

I hope this answers your queries.

As Camping says, "May the Lord richly bless you."

42 jk

I think life is a test set up by God (everything seems like a test to me these days, I've got Year 6 SATs starting on Monday). In the 'test', you either do bad (be a bad person), or you get full marks (be a good person). If you do well in the 'test', you will be rewarded with heaven.

On the other hand, God knows everything so the knows how we will come out in the test, making it pointless. Just like SATs; teacher know our abilities and all our marks for the year were sent off to Secondary school before the SATs.

Though, my views on heaven are not as positive. In my opinion, heaven (endless life) would just get boring because it wouldn't have an ending, meaning it wouldn't have a point. It will only be interesting for the first few months (or however time is counted there) and when the end of the world will come.

However, I don't believe in all the dates scientists can dream of as it is said, "But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and everything in them will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be exposed to judgment." (2 Peter 3:10). That means the world will end when we least expect it. But there are other wonders on that topic.

I used to wonder, "But what if you expect it every day?" I asked my mum (we were in Tesco) and she said, "If you expect it to happen every day, you don't actually expect it and day." That really got me thinking.

Back to the scientists; ever since they said the world will end on the 21st of December 2012, people were just like, "I bet it's another lie," and so they don't expect it at all then. But if they don't expect it, does that mean that Scientists were actually correct?

Though it is said that it will end when we don't expect it, I came up with my own expectation. I think that the world will end the moment everything will be discovered, everything will be made, every possible tune or lyrics will be written, basically when everything will be done. Because in a maths SAT, it sometimes says, "show your working out, you may get a mark." Now, I think that scientists, by sending stuff to space, making machines and all sorts of things are getting those 'extra marks' in life. So do priests. Now, if everything is discovered, you won't be able to earn those 'extra marks' and everyone will be the same! Either good, or bad.

QuotidianPerfection,
The theory you believe in (2% people went to heaven, other to the 'other place') is on the 21st May. Now, 21st is on a Saturday so it wouldn't make much sense to end it the day before we go to church. It would be better, it it was on the 22nd, so we could see if a smaller number of people actually turned up.


I am because it's my initials!

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Perhaps unsurprisingly, the author offers his thoughts on the get out clause. He merely hopes for rapture.... He doesn't say it's going to happen



It's the 'painted to look like the rapture' that interests me. Again, nowhere does the author state that the rapture will happen on these dates.

Any thoughts?

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Completely agree with you here. If you've made it to heaven, it suggests a level of spirituality had to have been obtained beforehand. Can you just throw it all away in heaven? Would god throw you out if you 'misbehaved'? Is there a naughty boys corner in heaven?

It's kind of like a computer game that you've finished and become bored with, except you've still got to play it, forever. Poor analogy I know, but I'm agnostic.



Everytime I go to Waitrose I ask these questions. That's why I shop at Tesco in Stockport.




I was employee no.42 on my payslip when I used to work for a magazine back in the 1990's. 42 is good. Douglas Adams seems to like it too.

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Hi Kubi and sparks:

I respect both of your opinions.

While sparks correctly points out that the author who draws an analogy between science and Camping's beliefs does not allude to the rapture, he does draw corollaries between scientific predictions of natural disasters which will transpire on May 21, 2011 and on October 21, 2011, and Camping's eschatological predictions. This is interesting, since, according to Camping, May 21, 2011 marks the first Day of Judgment, and October 21, 2011 demarcates the day when the whole universe will be "destroyed by fire."

I also read Kubi's posts, and his beliefs of whether or not one gets into Heaven seem to be based on how one conducts himself or herself during his or her lifetime. This, of course, assumes that individuals have free will.

I believe, however, that individuals are predestined to lead righteous or sinful lives. Here is a link which, perhaps, can make my thoughts on the preceding issue more transparent: http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip.

QP: I'm really struggling with this concept -



I have to ask, what's the point of worship if He's already decided who's coming and who isn't?

I also ask, what is the use of his creation(s) if he's going to smash it all to pieces?

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Hi sparks:

I will gladly field both of your questions. Remember that God is omniscent. God knows everything, down to precise detail, what happened in the past, what is occuring in the present, and what will transpire in the future. Hence, God knew ahead of time that 1) Lucifer would rebel against Him, who, and 2) Lucifer, in the form of Satan, would successfully guile Adam and Eve into eating forbidden fruit. God, though, did not force the Edenic duo to make that errant choice. God simply knew ahead of time that the Edenic duo would disobey His command not to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was Adam and Eve's disobedience which triggered catastrophic results for humanity (e.g., death).

However, as Harold Camping has explained, God selected certain individuals that He would save prior to Adam and Eve's foolish decision, which effectuated in humanity's loss of immortality. It should be noted, as Camping posits, that God did not have to select certain individuals which He would save from annihilation. God could have just as easily condemned the entire human race for the Edenic couple's sin. One ought to grateful that God has elected some individuals for salvation.

Now, to address you second concern: why did God create the Earth if He knew it would eventually be destroyed? My answer to your query is that God is a fair God, One who is not just going to eradicate what He creates just because it does not turn out to His liking. Besides, Earth was God's gift to the human race. It was man, and not God, who tainted this present by sinning against their Creator.

Despite the fact that many humans will be condemned by God, their is hope that they might be one of God's elect. One good tract to read is Jonathan Edwards' sermon, entiled "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," which discusses both the serious consequence that arises from sinning, and how one might escape from this grim outcome: http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/library/edwards_sinners.htm. (Note: When reading the preceding sermon, one should substitute Edwards' descriptions of Hell with Camping's descriptions of annihilation.)

QP:

I'm still no clearer on my question of 'what's the point of worship if He's already decided who's coming and who isn't?'

And on this point:



but the ones that will be annihilated were selcted by default...



Hardly fair is it?

God is coming across as, for want of a better term, 'a bully who just want's to be listened to'..... where he's the only child in a celestial playground. The more I think about it, the more I feel sorry for him.

How will you feel if he turns you away at the gates of heaven?

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