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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:49 am  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi RE Virus,

First of all, Obama does not deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. He did, however, condemn torturing political prisoners. (Coercing confessions from prisoners, in my opinion, is equally as wrong as beheading political prisoners. Our Constitution forbids this sort of practice.) In fact, he is the first president to try a terrorist before a civilian court, rather than a military tribunal.

If you are interested in whether torturing a person can make a person tell the truth, just watch Goya's Ghosts, a movie about the Catholic Inquisition. During ome scene, a patrician family demonstrates to an Inquisitor how, under duress, a person will admit to anything.

But whereas Obama makes strides to correct a problem, Hitler does no such thing, and neither does Stalin or Mussolini. The Kathyn Forest massacre, while ochestrated by Russians, is equally as deplorable as Hitler's massacre of Jews in Germany. If Hitler despised moneylending, for instance, he did not have to pack Jews in concentration camps. All he had to do was implement fines for that particular practice. Instead of choosing to reason with various Jewish leaders, he vowed to eradicate them, even their babies. There are plenty of Holocaust camps all over Europe to evidence his attrocities.

Also, if Hitler hated Russia so much, then why did he make pact with Stalin?

A final thought: there is no such thing as a "brainwashing" Jewish media. People have the ability to think for themselves, and should. Ignorance and violence get people nowhere. However, thought and empathy are quite capable of ameliorating one's sociopolitical climate.

After watching the two YouTube documentaries, I came to the following conclusions, which are highlighted above. Feel free, though, to disagree with me if you wish.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:22 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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You didn't address much of anything, but I hope it got you interested enough.

QuotidianPerfection wrote:
First of all, Obama does not deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. He did, however, condemn torturing political prisoners.

Condemning it is just to look good (duh). There is no evidence that he put a stop to it.

Quote:
In fact, he is the first president to try a terrorist before a civilian court, rather than a military tribunal.

You mean KSM? You didn't even use the qualifier "alleged", or "self-professed"; that's pretty bad dude. KSM is so obviously innocent of 9/11 that there's pretty much no chance that he'll see a civilian trial.

Quote:
If you are interested in whether torturing a person can make a person tell the truth, just watch Goya's Ghosts, a movie about the Catholic Inquisition. During ome scene, a patrician family demonstrates to an Inquisitor how, under duress, a person will admit to anything.

You're absolutely correct, and KSM was tortured to the point of confessing to bombing a building that didn't exist until after his capture.

Quote:
But whereas Obama makes strides to correct a problem

Reading a speech written by others to make yourself look good politically does not constitute in any way "making strides to correct a problem".

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The Kathyn Forest massacre, while ochestrated by Russians, is equally as deplorable as Hitler's massacre of Jews in Germany.

"O[r]chestrated by Russians"? Did you watch the video? The NKVD was largely staffed by Jews and run entirely by Jews. Equally deplorable? Surely, but in one case the victims were Communist partisans (i.e. hostile political enemies), and in the other case the victims were a nation's intelligentsia -- not just government and military, but clergymen, educators, engineers -- Poland's brightest Goyim.

Quote:
If Hitler despised moneylending, for instance, he did not have to pack Jews in concentration camps. All he had to do was implement fines for that particular practice.

Usury was not the only issue, nor is your projected scope of "moneylending" accurate. The Jewish international bankers were behind Communism, both in Russia and Germany, thus "implementing fines" would seem to have little effect, don't you think?

Jews were not the only ones interned in concentration camps, as you know. Communist sympathisers were on the top of the list as much as the Jews. It had little to do with race (in fact, several NS leaders had Jewish blood) and much to do with their revolutionary, traitorous behavior and methods. Did you know that America had concentration camps for Japanese-Americans? The truth is that the "Japs" were treated worse in America than the Jews were treated in Nazi Germany. Yet one would have a hard time finding a mere mention in "history" schoolbooks of the American concentration camps.

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Instead of choosing to reason with various Jewish leaders, he vowed to eradicate them, even their babies.

He never made such a vow; that's not even the official story, as his "Final Solution" plan was supposed to be a secret -- so secret there isn't a single document to even suggest that the "FS" meant extermination (as opposed to deportation). Also, Hitler collaborated with Jewish leaders to the point that some believed at the time (and some still believe) that he was working for them. Look up the Haavara Agreement.

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There are plenty of Holocaust camps all over Europe to evidence his attrocities.

You must mean "death camps". The simple truth is, there aren't. No archeological digs have been performed. No forensic evidence has been done as to the cause of death (gas chambers) for any mass grave. No ground soil analysis for hundreds of alleged mass grave sites. Not a single document from the documentation-obsessed NS bureaucracy referring to homicidal gassings, systematic mass cremations, extermination policy, etc. There is simply zero evidence EXCEPT for less than 10 eyewitnesses who claim they saw gassings. That is the truth; spend a few years doing the required research, as I have done! Start here if you prefer the book route: Holocaust books, or watch Holocaust denial videos if you prefer to start with videos that are easier to digest.

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Also, if Hitler hated Russia so much, then why did he make pact with Stalin?

It was a non-aggression pact; I don't think there's much mystery to it.

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A final thought: there is no such thing as a "brainwashing" Jewish media. People have the ability to think for themselves, and should.

I wish you were right, but I'm afraid it isn't the case. Especially in America. Look around you! How many people around you could you engage in an intelligent conversation about something important, i.e. not about American Idol or the World Series?

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After watching the two YouTube documentaries, I came to the following conclusions, which are highlighted above. Feel free, though, to disagree with me if you wish.

There were 3 videos, not 2. You seem to ramble quite randomly, having a hard time focusing on one particular subject. You're a strange fellow.



BTW, to quote a post (like I do above multiple times), just put the quote between [quote ] and [/quote ], without the space preceeding the ]. Read more about it here: faq.php?mode=bbcode

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:19 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi RE Virus,

Thanks for the technical advice. Say what you want about Obama, but inhumane treatment of prisoners is a far cry from sentencing Jews, Gypsies, Catholics, homosexuals, and other "abberants" to concentration camps. And, yes, these camps are in no way mythical--they do exist. Empirical evidence bears this out, as suggested by the following photos captured in this link: http://www.qualityinformationpublishers.com/naziconcentrationcamppictures.aspx. Is this propoganda?

Or, if you prefer witnesses to the attrocities that transpired within these camp, just listen to the following interview with a Holocaust survivor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4IkD82IpMw. (The link I gave you constitutes the first part of a fifteen-part series.)

Here is a YouTube video of Aushwitz, a concentration camp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVQ42B-8oCY.

If you want, I can research more areas which prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that death camps operated when Nazism reach its Zentith in Europe. The only person I know so far to advance the theory that the Holocaust never existed is the President of Iran. He was widely condemened for both his insensitivity and failure to recognize the deplorable acts that took place in these concentration camp during Nazi Germany.

And, no, I am not rambling, nor am I straying from the topic. I am just detailing facts, and am allowing you to judge the merit of them. Your argument is extremely well-articulated, but disintegrates when tested in the light of logic. Thanks, though, for the response.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:59 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Thanks for the technical advice. Say what you want about Obama, but inhumane treatment of prisoners is a far cry from sentencing Jews, Gypsies, Catholics, homosexuals, and other "abberants" to concentration camps.

"Abberants" is your term, and if you were thinking of "untermensch", that term was not used by the Nazis outside of a battlefield context (and I think largely in response to Ilya Ehrenburg's criminal hatemongering).

Quote:
And, yes, these camps are in no way mythical--they do exist. Empirical evidence bears this out, as suggested by the following photos captured in this link: http://www.qualityinformationpublishers.com/naziconcentrationcamppictures.aspx. Is this propoganda?

You are totally ignorant about the subject. Nobody has EVER said that the camps are mythical. Yes, it's propaganda that is effective to the point that it makes you somehow confuse the fact that the camps existed with the allegations of deliberate mass murder within them.

Quote:
Or, if you prefer witnesses to the attrocities that transpired within these camp, just listen to the following interview with a Holocaust survivor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4IkD82IpMw. (The link I gave you constitutes the first part of a fifteen-part series.)

The guy is most likely telling the truth about his experience. He doesn't mention gas chambers, cremation ovens, lampshades... he's just another concentration camp inmate who survived without witnessing any of the "attrocities" that are alleged to constitute the Shoah. Can't you find a video of a survivor who actually claims to have seen the gassings? Go ahead and try. Fact is, there are only a few.

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Here is a YouTube video of Aushwitz, a concentration camp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVQ42B-8oCY.

What could make you state that "Aus[c]hwitz [is] a concentration camp" -- as if there was a chance that I don't know that -- and show me a tourist video of 2008 Auschwitz, if not a total lack of knowledge about the subject?

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The only person I know so far to advance the theory that the Holocaust never existed is the President of Iran. He was widely condemened for both his insensitivity and failure to recognize the deplorable acts that took place in these concentration camp during Nazi Germany.

Which shows how little you know, because you never had access to revisionist books (and you are new to the Internet).

Ahmadinejad never actually "denied" the holohoax, he just called for open debate on the subject. Which is why the Holocaust Conference was attended by scholars from both sides (except for those that oppose free speech), and by anti-Zionist Orthodox rabbis. But watching the media you got the impression that it was attended by KKK members.

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And, no, I am not rambling, nor am I straying from the topic. I am just detailing facts, and am allowing you to judge the merit of them.

You are extremely selective, however you see it. You address only about 5-10% of what I say.

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Your argument is extremely well-articulated, but disintegrates when tested in the light of logic. Thanks, though, for the response.

That's easy to say and the comfortable thing to believe.

You said you were interested in literature and history. At first I joked about your misspellings and odd remarks about Hitler etc, but now I realize you don't know much at all about either. Clearly you know almost nothing about the official narrative of the Holocaust, something I assumed you did since you bashed Hitler on every single post. And as for the literature part, if true, you should be able to form an equally "extremely well-articulated" argument instead of rambling on the edges of the subjects at hand.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:06 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi Re Virus,

I have read "the other side" to the Holocaust story--which asserts that the gas chambers are fictive. Let me present to you some optical evidence to show that this is not the case: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/mauthausen/Gas%20Chamber/GasChamberEntrance.html. This is a Mauthausen gas chamber.

Other Nazi "attrocities" were commited outside concentration camps as well. Here is an account of Heinrich Boere, a Duth individual who, after enlisting in the SS guard, assassinated "three Dutch civilians." Follow this link if you care about the story: http://www.newser.com/story/75739/ex-nazi-i-was-just-following-orders.html.

And, yes, here is a former Nazi who, after seeing "the errors of his ways," describes that the environment which I described in my previous posts did, in fact, exist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfGr0g6TsZY&feature=related. Just watch this YouTube view. The account is not from taken fom what you consider a controlling Jewish media spewing "Holocaust propaganda," but by an ex-Nazi himself.

By the way, just because I do not buy into your opinions, many of which accuse Jews of everything, does not mean that I do not listen to your opinion, nor look at the clips and / or links to which you allude.

By the way, I do not have to brag about my experience in literature--my ability to present a variety of viewpoints which support my perspective, while, simultaneously, refuting other evidence which I encounter--speaks for itself. And, no, I do not bash opinions which I disagree with--I dissect them, then make an informed decision based on what I see and read. And, up to this point, many of your arguments fail to persuade me.

Please do not take this the wrong way. I am not saying you are not an intellectual--your writing and research ability proves this. However, you seem to think along the lines that, if X does not think like me, then that individual must be unenlightened. I, though, will continue this debate, even though some of your "assertions" about me are bullshit (I hold an M.A. in English, and a B.A. in Literature and in History). However, I want to keep a low profile, so, as much as I regret it, I will be unable to divulge "information," such as my name, my college, the region in the United States where I live, etc.

I hope, though, that what I have shown above illustrates why Hitler and his Nazi adminstration are NOTHING LIKE Obama and his group of politicians.

One last thing: Jews are people like everybody else--why do you think they are all malevolent, RE Virus?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:22 am  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Once again you didn't address any of my arguments directly, but only in a peripheral manner. And you again contradict yourself...

Quote:
The only person I know so far to advance the theory that the Holocaust never existed is the President of Iran
[...]
I have read "the other side" to the Holocaust story--which asserts that the gas chambers are fictive.

So which is it? Or did you read "the other side to the Holocaust story" from President Ahmadinejad's non-existing writings on the matter?

Quote:
Let me present to you some optical evidence to show that this is not the case: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/mauthausen/Gas%20Chamber/GasChamberEntrance.html. This is a Mauthausen gas chamber.

The article claims in the first friggin' paragraph that: "The gassing apparatus ... was removed by the SS when they left the camp a few days before it was liberated ... and no traces of the gassing apparatus can be seen today." So how is this "optical evidence"? I submit again that you don't know what you're talking about.

As the article puts it: "This same poison gas was used in all the Nazi concentration camps to disinfect the prisoners' clothing in order to kill the body lice which spreads typhus." Thus it follows that the fact that the chamber existed does not prove that it was used to murder inmates. Mauthausen was the harshest of the major labor camps, with a lack of sanitation (compared to Auschwitz), making a disinfection chamber a necessity.

Not surprisingly, the earliest propaganda attempts to claim homicidal gassings originate from Mauthausen (by distorting experiments with poison gas), but it was Jewish imagination several decades after the war that actually reversed the purpose of the gas chambers, which in fact saved millions of inmates from typhus. The majority of camp victims died from starvation and typhus in the final months of the war due to Allied bombing of the supply lines to the camps.

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Other Nazi "attrocities" were commited outside concentration camps as well.

Indeed, and those real atrocities, such as those of the particularly brutal Einsatzgruppen D, which are documented, are the ones that ought to be condemned, not the fantasies of homicidal bug spray and human soap and skin lampshades and shrunken heads.

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And, yes, here is a former Nazi who, after seeing "the errors of his ways," describes that the environment which I described in my previous posts did, in fact, exist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfGr0g6TsZY&feature=related. Just watch this YouTube view. The description is not engineered by what a controlling Jewish media, but by an ex-Nazi himself.

First off, ex-Nazis are often the easiest of all people to control. "You say what we tell you to say, or you spend the rest of your days in a dark cell." -"You have nothing on me!" -"Who are they gonna believe, a Nazi pig or a Shoah survivor?" But Germans were (note that I don't say "are") not known to submit without a fight, so many ex-Nazis cleverly put deliberate falsehoods into their forced testimonies. The most notable of which is Adolf Eichmann during his show-trial in Israel.

That's quite an interesting interview. It's funny how they compare Nazi Germany and America today: "we are living in a society which is covered with lies," he says. "We only got the Nazi angle in the news." Indeed, the Americans only get the Jewish angle in the news. They criticize the ACLU and the abortion industry, both of which are run by atheist Jews. He talks about a "world government" plot led by "the extreme left" and about "[unnamed] people who have infiltrated the media". He foolishly says that Arafat was a Soviet agent, a ridiculous idea which originates from the John Birch Society around the McCarthy era. He also parrots ludicrous lies of Jewish supremacists like David Horowitz, claiming that the Mufti of Jerusalem "oversaw" the Holocaust and that there is a "Nazi-Muslim connection".

Is this the best "ex-Nazi" you can find? The guy presents himself as a Christian dispensationalist crackpot, irrespective of whether he's ever been threatened.

Quote:
By the way, just because I do not buy into your opinions, many of which accuse Jews of everything, does not mean that I do not listen to your opinion, nor look at the clips and / or links to which you allude.

Then you should watch those Holocaust Denial Videos, especially the one by the young Jewish man who went to Auschwitz to investigate the gas chamber claims.

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By the way, I do not have to brag about my experience in literature--my ability to present a variety of viewpoints which support my perspective, while, simultaneously, refuting other evidence which I encounter--speaks for itself. And, no, I do not bash opinions which I disagree with--I dissect them, then make an informed decision based on what I see and read. And, up to this point, many of your arguments fail to persuade me.

That's fine, but you haven't presented any counter-arguments to specific claims. You completely avoid dealing in specifics.

Quote:
However, you seem to think along the lines that, if X does not think like me, then that individual must be unenlightened. I, though, will continue this debate, even though some of your "assertions" about me are bullshit (I hold an M.A. in English, and a B.A. in Literature and in History).

Then why are you unable to engage me directly in a debate? I explained how to use the quote feature, which should make it easier for you to address the specific points. But I bet you will continue to deal in generalities.

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One last thing: Jews are people like everybody else--why do you think they are all malevolent, RE Virus?

Why do you make illogical assumptions that can only come from years of brainwashing?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:43 am  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi RE Virus,

Please do not get me wrong: I do not dislike you as a person, nor do I doubt your anaylitical ability. Nevertheless, in every response, no matter what I do to show you that murder occured inside the Holocaust camps, you reply by saying 1) it never happened, or 2) sending me "select" Holocaust denial prograpanda, much of which I have already read, to make your case. Thus, this argument is in a stalemate because I have referenced documents / interviews which have shown that horrific crimes have taken place in these "death camps" while you have picked a book, picture, or video here and there to deny it. As a result, the thread is straying from the topic of whether Obama is similar to or different from Hitler, and, instead, becoming a heated debate over whether the Nazi Holocaust is fact or fiction. I believe that I have proven to my satisfaction in my posts that the Holocaust did, in actuality, transpire. Our differences on the matter are irreconciable, however, and this particular thread is quickly disintegrating into one where my comments draw your ire and insults. Henceforth, this is the last post which I will write on this topic. Once again, I thank you for volunteering to assist me with any technical difficulties I might have with using the icons on this particular site. Take care, and good luck in your endeavors.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:08 am  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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QuotidianPerfection wrote:
Please do not get me wrong: I do not dislike you as a person, nor do I doubt your anaylitical ability.

I can say the former about you, but not the latter.

Quote:
Nevertheless, in every response, no matter what I do to show you that murder occured inside the Holocaust camps, you reply by saying 1) it never happened, or 2) sending me "select" Holocaust denial prograpanda, much of which I have already read, to make your case.

That's plainly untrue. You pointed to an article with images that plainly states that it doesn't show the evidence that you are claiming it shows. You pointed to an interview with an "ex-Nazi" who is in fact an evangelical Zionist neocon dispensationalist nut, whose judgment can hardly be taken seriously. What else have you shown?

And once again you misrepresent the case. The phrasing "that murder occcured inside the Holocaust camps" implies that "any case of murder" is in dispute, when what is in dispute is the alleged deliberate policy of mass murder with the primary weapon being poison gas. And the odd term "Holocaust camps" is clearly loaded. I have to wonder if this apparent sophistry of yours is deliberate.

Quote:
Thus, this argument is in a stalemate because I have referenced documents / interviews which have shown that horrific crimes have taken place in these "death camps"

You so absolutely haven't! How the hell can you consider the few references you have pointed to as proof of homicidal gassings or an extermination policy? If you pointed to Raul Hillberg or Yitzhak Arad, this specious argument of yours might begin to have a leg to stand on.

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while you have picked a book, picture, or video here and there to deny it.

Not at all; I have provided arguments based entirely on logic and facts. I've pointed you to books and videos for your education on a matter you clearly know nothing about (Holocaust revisionism, and in fact Holocaust orthodoxy), despite your claims to the contrary.

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As a result, the thread is straying from the topic of whether Obama is similar to or different from Hitler, and, instead, becoming a heated debate over whether the Nazi Holocaust is fact or fiction.

A topic can naturally stray from the original topic; that is perfectly fine in Internet forums in most cases. If someone wants to comment strictly about the original topic subject, they can do so.

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I believe that I have proven to my satisfaction in my posts that the Holocaust did, in actuality, transpire.

To your satisfaction, perhaps, but anyone reading, regardless of what they believe, will realize you only write in general terms and haven't even tried to address any specifics.

Quote:
Our differences on the matter are irreconciable, however, and this particular thread is quickly disintegrating into one where my comments draw your ire and insults.

There is no ire or insults, but your unwillingness to deal in specifics, and your chutzpah to claim that you're provided actual arguments (in contrast to sophistical glowing generalities), is quite annoying, like talking to a wall.

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Henceforth, this is the last post which I will write on this topic.

Good, as you are a total waste of time.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:47 am  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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I'm off to Auschwitz next year

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:52 am  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Don't believe everything Francis the tour guide tells you.

But don't open your mouth either, or you'll be grounded.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:59 am  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Good, as you are a total waste of time.

QuotidianPerfection's abilities to not have to resort to insult during a discussion are applauded.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:20 am  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Doesn't change the fact that he doesn't actually discuss the facts. My insulting tone is a product of the frustration caused by his refusal to discuss the actual arguments. He IS a total waste of time.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:46 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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ReVirus wrote:
evangelical Zionist neocon dispensationalist nut, whose judgment can hardly be taken seriously


Not that I've read what this person said, but I should note, that this isn't stringent enough to be taken as an argument. You have to either show what's wrong with what is being said, not by attacking someone's judgement, essentially an ad hominem fallacy, or act of poisoning the well. If these types of arguments are valid, it would be easy enough for me to say that we shouldn't believe what you have to say because it's written by an "anti-semitic, revisionist, white supremacist, nut-job". More people would believe me too, but that is also committing a fallacy ad populum.

So here is my challenge to you. Try to actually formulate arguments that aren't based on, yeah well he's a Zionist, crypto-Zionist, whatever, because they aren't valid. Attacking ethos, while entertaining, and perhaps useful in political debates actually mean nothing when it comes to asserting the states of affairs in the world.

BTW, you are a Spaniard right?

Well, it all harks back to the Inquisition (what a show!) and a forceful conversion of Spain's Jews. Many emigrated. Many converted, stayed, and integrated themselves into Spanish society. So much so that, by some estimates, 1/5 of Spain has some Jewish blood in it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:59 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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doyle wrote:
ReVirus wrote:
evangelical Zionist neocon dispensationalist nut, whose judgment can hardly be taken seriously

Not that I've read what this person said, but I should note, that this isn't stringent enough to be taken as an argument. You have to either show what's wrong with what is being said, not by attacking someone's judgement, essentially an ad hominem fallacy, or act of poisoning the well.

Let's put the issue back into its context. The guy is presented as a regular German who fell for the evil Nazis. But he is not a regular guy; he is exactly what I said he is--an evangelical Christian of the American dispensationalist type. Thus my argument that his judgement may be flawed is valid. On its own it would be an argumentum ad hominem, yes, but you ignored the other points I made about the guy:
Quote:
He foolishly says that Arafat was a Soviet agent, a ridiculous idea which originates from the John Birch Society around the McCarthy era. He also parrots ludicrous lies of Jewish supremacists like David Horowitz, claiming that the Mufti of Jerusalem "oversaw" the Holocaust and that there is a "Nazi-Muslim connection".

I watched the two parts of the Youtube video, and he says exactly that. Clearly, what the guy says about Nazi Germany cannot be believed given his parroting of Jewish supremacists and insane Zionist dispensationalist dogma.

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If these types of arguments are valid, it would be easy enough for me to say that we shouldn't believe what you have to say because it's written by an "anti-semitic, revisionist, white supremacist, nut-job". More people would believe me too, but that is also committing a fallacy ad populum.

But that wouldn't be true; whereas in the case of the German dude those adjectives I ascribed to him are accurate. And white supremacist? Hahaha, you don't even know the color of my skin!

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So here is my challenge to you. Try to actually formulate arguments that aren't based on, yeah well he's a Zionist, crypto-Zionist, whatever, because they aren't valid. Attacking ethos, while entertaining, and perhaps useful in political debates actually mean nothing when it comes to asserting the states of affairs in the world.

How about the ~99% of other arguments I made that QP refused to address? You are implying that I have asserted that the old German guy is wrong because he's a Christian Zionist nutjob. He is wrong, period. Talk to any very old German who was old enough at the time of WWII, and he'll tell you a totally different story (though not in public). All I did was point out a reason for why he may believe what he believes, if indeed he isn't lying.

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So you believe Jewishness is genetic? That's truly racist!

Most of the New Christians assimilated over a few generations and became entirely genuine Christians. Most of the Jews who refused to convert fled north- or eastwards into Europe, or to Northern Africa. Very few Conversos remained as Marranos (crypto-Jews pretending to embrace Christianity). Once the Inquisition was lifted, the few remaining Marrano families returned to their former status and openly practiced Sephardic rites and observances again.

Did you know that the leader of the Spanish Inquisition, Tomas de Torquemada, was a Jew? Since you define Jews by their blood, you'll also be interested to know that 40% of Sicily had Jewish blood at the time of the emergence of the Mafiosi in the 19th Century. Most interesting tidbits indeed.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:57 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi All:

It is a historical fact that, during the Holocaust, Jews wrongfully imprisoned in concentration camps all over Europe died in gas chambers. Here is undeniable proof that the aforementioned event happened: http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/othercamps/auschwitzgaschambers.html.

As an aside, there is no such thing as "Revisionist" history. That moniker is used by individuals who do not like particular events which transpired in the past, and, therefore, choose to either change the facts surrounding the occurences or to deny the happenings altogether.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:17 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Well thank you very much for your expert opinion, QP, which no doubt is the product of hundreds of hours of personal research into both sides of the subject.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:43 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi RE Virus:

You're welcome.

By the way, it is not my opinion that the Holocaust occurred during World War II--it is a historical fact. However, your beliefs on this matter may vary from mine, and you are entitled to speak openly about them, irrespective of how much I may disagree with your convictions on the topic at hand.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:31 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Yes, "historical fact" which you have personally researched for hundreds of hours, as I have, no doubt.

You should scroll to the top of this page an read what I went through with you. I will repeat the simplest of truths:

No archeological digs have been performed. No forensic evidence has been done as to the cause of death (gas chambers) for any mass grave. No ground soil analysis for hundreds of alleged mass grave sites. Not a single document from the documentation-obsessed NS bureaucracy referring to homicidal gassings, systematic mass cremations, extermination policy, etc.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:59 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi RE Virus:

I have read "Revisionist" literature, books which opine that there is no proof that a Holocaust ever transpired during WWII. Your assertion that the mass extermination of Jews in concentration camp gas chambers during World War II never really happened basically parrots the logic outlined in "Revisionist" books. Despite the literature which I sent you that repudiates such claims, you continue to argue that there is no verification that Nazis were responsible for the death of over six million Jews. Ironically, by stating that there is no factual basis for assuming that Jews were exterminated in mass quantities during World War II, you are also stating, by implication, that one cannot say that the Holocaust did not not happen. While there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that documents how, during World War II, the Jews were the victims of a genocidal attempt which the Nazis perpetrated against them, your statements also make the case that "Revisionist" philosophers are also unsure whether the Holocaust is cemented in historical fact. Their doubt implies that "Revisionist" proponents are, in actuality, half-sure the Holocaust took place. Think this over.

Take care.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:02 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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RE Virus wrote:
Yes, "historical fact" which you have personally researched for hundreds of hours, as I have, no doubt.

You should scroll to the top of this page an read what I went through with you. I will repeat the simplest of truths:

No archeological digs have been performed. No forensic evidence has been done as to the cause of death (gas chambers) for any mass grave. No ground soil analysis for hundreds of alleged mass grave sites. Not a single document from the documentation-obsessed NS bureaucracy referring to homicidal gassings, systematic mass cremations, extermination policy, etc.


Can I just ask RE and I don't wish to debate or anything i'm just asking, once you answer i'll sod off again but, what about your thoughts on the German soldiers and officers who survived and claimed they initiated the gassings themselves and so on? Do you believe they're lying... propaganda... don't exist etc? I only enquire because my significant other is German and his family and extended family heritage is extremely close to the war.

As to say I won't judge you or anything, I merely enquire because i'm interested and as you've stated no jew survivor in any of your evidence and QP's evidence mentioned gassing and I wondered on your thoughts from the other side... the guilty side if you will.

Thanks in advance, :china

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:42 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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"Revisionist" philosophers are also unsure whether the Holocaust is cemented in historical fact.

No they are not unsure. The revisionist argument you are alluding to is that one cannot prove a negative, thus the burden of proof must be on the Holocaust believers to prove the story. And "philosophers"? All "revisionist" material concentrates on facts. Philosophy has its place, and it's not in the field of history. You're the only "revisionist philosopher" here, as you make up claims that the Holocaust industry doesn't actually make!

Here is a handy chart that should help clear up your confusion about "Holocaust Revisionists"/"Holocaust Deniers":

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NA wrote:
Can I just ask RE and I don't wish to debate or anything i'm just asking, once you answer i'll sod off again but, what about your thoughts on the German soldiers and officers who survived and claimed they initiated the gassings themselves and so on? Do you believe they're lying... propaganda... don't exist etc? I only enquire because my significant other is German and his family and extended family heritage is extremely close to the war.

As to say I won't judge you or anything, I merely enquire because i'm interested and as you've stated no jew survivor in any of your evidence and QP's evidence mentioned gassing and I wondered on your thoughts from the other side... the guilty side if you will.

Thanks in advance, :china

Don't worry about offense/controversy/PC or whatever. We should be allowed to discuss this subject (and all other subjects) openly. You may think there are many Germans soldiers who claimed they carried out homicidal gassings, but there are only a handful. After the war the victors held trials (the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg in occupied Germany) against the defeated Germans. Their main purpose was not only to humiliate the Nazis, but to cover-up their own crimes, and to do that they had to make the case that the Axis powers had carried out war crimes that exceeded their own. The Allies had to make their war crimes, such as the firebombings of Dresden (120,000 civilians killed in one night), Tokyo, and other cities, and the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, seem small in comparison to the Axis' war crimes.

So they had prisoners tortured into confessing a large number of crimes, and had this recorded by the court historians present at the trials. Many of the confessed crimes are no longer held by the official story-tellers to have occured. For example, there were confessions that Jewish bones were made into soap bars, their skin into lampshades, and their skulls shrinked to be used as souvenirs. There were confessions that carbon monoxide from trucks was used as a murder weapon, complete with trap floors ready to have the bodies dumped onto trucks. Jews worldwide still firmly believe in these laughable myths, yet they are not officially part of the larger Holocaust mythology any longer. The top Holocaust historian, Raul Hilberg, also lowered the number of Jewish victims to 5.1 million, but the 6 million number persists in the popular culture (i.e. Jewish media and Jewish Hollywood).

Since many people did die in the concentration camps, the false confessions had some credibility to them. The truth is that the vast majority of camp inmates died due to Allied bombing of the supply lines to the camps near the end of the war. The bodies you see in the camps footage are so skinny because they died of starvation and a typhus epidemic. Had they not bombed the railways and roads, food and medical supplies would likely have continued reaching the camps all the way up to the end of the war, saving hundreds of thousands of people.

At the Nuremberg trials, everyone agreed that the Katyn forest massacre (22,000 of Poland's greatest people executed) was perpetrated by the Nazis, even though the British and Americans absolutely knew that it was their ally Stalin. The Soviet massacres against Ukrainians, such as that of Vinnytsia, were also blamed on the Germans, while the 7-10 million Ukrainians deliberately starved to death in 1933 (a genocide greater than the alleged Holocaust!) were not even mentioned.

Most people have the impression that the Nuremberg trials were fair and just, but in truth it is officially acknowledged that there were many issues with it. Read the Wikipedia criticism section to see how much the official story-tellers (but not Hollywood and the MSM) actually admit was wrong with the IMT.

Outside of the Nuremberg trials, there are very few German "confessions" of homicidal gassings that I know of. One is that of Adolf Eichmann, who was kidnapped in Argentina and then tried in Israel. Eichmann cleverly inserted all sorts of nonsensical falsehoods into his forced confessions so that future observers would be able to see how fraudulent the trial was. This 4-hour documentary dissecting 3 particular alleged extermination camps analyzes some of these odd cases: http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/one_third_of_the_holocaust.html

You should watch all the videos at that site, they are very informative!

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:21 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi NA and RE Virus:

Here is undeniable empirical proof that Jews perished in concencentration camp gas chambers during World War II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sUNw2DEtEg. I will provide additional information which establishes the Holocaust as a unrefutable historical fact upon request.

Take care.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:01 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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QuotidianPerfection wrote:
Hi NA and RE Virus:

Here is undeniable empirical proof that Jews perished in concencentration camp gas chambers during World War II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sUNw2DEtEg. I will provide additional information which establishes the Holocaust as a unrefutable historical fact upon request.

Take care.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Quoted to be saved for posterity.

QP is even dumber than I imagined.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:52 pm  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi RE Virus:

Here is an athologized list of documents which proves that the Holocaust transpired during World War II: http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/documents/home_documents.html. You are correct, RE Virus--the Internet is a wonderful place to dig for information. You might want to read these documents--they might convince you that, during World War II, a Holocaust actually occurred.

NA can also browse through the anthology, and make a decision about whether not "Revisionist" claims are valid.

As a footnote, I am erudite--the opposite of stupid.

Take care.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:31 am  Post subject: Re: Obama vs. Hitler  
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Hi guys, thanks for the article RE and the website, some of the stuff you mentioned in your post I was already aware of, WW2 is a particular interest of mine, I can't say I agree with all your points but it's absolutely something to think about, thanks for sharing.

QP, I don't get into these heated debates they're a bit too full on for me, but I don't think you're stupid and I don't discount your evidence in any way, my question wasn't to get either of you to swing me one way or the other. I already know what I think, it was just to ask RE's thoughts on a slightly different matter.

Thanks both for your time, I will continue to check this thread for your informative websites, but this'll be my last reply as like I said i'm not a heavy debater. Have fun though, thanks again!

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