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Should the US pull out of Iraq
Yes 29%  29%  [ 5 ]
NO 41%  41%  [ 7 ]
Just Keep a minimal force there 29%  29%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 17
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:50 pm  Post subject: The War In Iraq  
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A big controversy these days is the us problem in Iraq debating weather or not to pull out troops I think the shouldn't cause then it's possible another fanatical government might come in to power and you know the US and its Allies have all those problems with those kind of governments over there well enough of my opinions how about yours :heh

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:23 pm  Post subject:   
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If only it was as simple as pulling out, but infortunately it isn't I think for the US to pull out of Iraq there must be a stable situation there. We helped create a mess, we help fix it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:25 pm  Post subject:   
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That is so so true if you make the mess you pick it up and thats what the US should do and so should its allies like GB and Germany and all thoughs other countries that came in with us

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:14 pm  Post subject:   
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YES!

iraq war is a bull shit war so bush can finish what his daddy didnt and rob them of their oil :glare

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:16 pm  Post subject:   
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Thats what I've been saying if they wouldn't have went there in the first place we wouldn't have this problem in the first place, Bush you War Mongering Jerk you sent troops over there in vain :mad

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:27 pm  Post subject:   
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nad416 wrote:
YES!

iraq war is a bull shit war so bush can finish what his daddy didnt and rob them of their oil :glare



You freaking moron! Gas prices are higher than ever! Now lets stop this form becoming another debate topic, I want to see peoples opinions on our exit stratergy, not the war itself.

PS. Sorry for the personal assualy, it just opens the sentence quite nicely. :P :cheers

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:30 pm  Post subject:   
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OMFG, I'm fucking sick of this. This is like a new saying for every person who tries to talk about Iraq and have NO fucking clue what they're talking about. I'm as anti-Bush as anyone. But:


THEY DID NOT GO THERE FOR THE OIL

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:31 pm  Post subject:   
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THIS IS A THREAD FOR EXIT STRATEGIES NOT THE OIL STUF AND THAT KIND OF CRAP SO GET ON SUBJECT

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:34 pm  Post subject:   
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Witch King wrote:
Thats what I've been saying if they wouldn't have went there in the first place we wouldn't have this problem in the first place, Bush you War Mongering Jerk you sent troops over there in vain :mad



THAT'S NOT ABOUT EXITING IRAQ, YOU HYPOCRYTE, GET ON SUBJECT


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:28 pm  Post subject:   
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Exit Strategy? What exit strategy?

There isn't one. Bush didn't think that far ahead. He cared about one thing, getting Saddam out of Iraq. His simple-mindedness (or single-mindedness if you're pro-Bush) didn't allow for much thinking beyond that. Remember Bosnia? Iraq is like Bosnia, except with people who hate us more. We've been in Bosnia for 10 years and by all accounts, the old rivalries and a full blown civil war can resume there within a few weeks - expect longer with Iraq. Even with the best assessment from the CIA, there will only be a "tenuous stability" in Iraq over the next year. The U.S can't hope to make any clean exit from a place with so many different denominations of Islam each following their own warlord - it's impossible. So yeah, it's multiple years - probably two presidents after Bush. Then some sort of side event will happen that will allow us to "save face" (some tenuous treaty, some UN force will come in, etc.) and pull out of a half-strength contry with a quarter-strength government, just like Vietnam. But don't expect that for at least 3 years, and I'd wager it'll be more like a decade before we're out.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:52 pm  Post subject:   
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nad416 wrote:
YES!

iraq war is a bull shit war so bush can finish what his daddy didnt and rob them of their oil :glare


Hey Nad, I really really really hope you read what I'm about to write:

Every senator and represenative except ONE voted to go into Iraq. Bush didn't go all by himself, he had all the liberals and conservatives and libertarians and moderates and greens and whigs and the entire country behind him (with John Kerry his biggest supporter, mind you). Only after all was said and done and with the new election coming up did people start "blaming" Bush (and there's not even anything to be blamed on, the war has been a success, not a failure). If you want to blame someone for the US going into Iraq, you blame the UNITED STATES, as was voted on. Thank you.

And on a side note to Gondee: You can't think that far ahead, war tactics are produced according to each move made. There have been very few mistakes made, and given the situation, that's a great thing. Why aren't all Americans excited we're kicking ass? We're such pussies as a whole (no pun intended) that it's shameful.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:33 pm  Post subject:   
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PD~ wrote:
Why aren't all Americans excited we're kicking ass? We're such pussies as a whole (no pun intended) that it's shameful.


Because too many people are dying. It just shouldn't happen, either way. Enemy or not, no one deserves to die like that. Plain and simple. Too many soldiers and hostages, etc are dying to a cause that doesn't exist...but I'm not gonna get into what I believe cause I don't really care what you have to say back. So commence the flaming as you so love to do. There is no such thing as winning a war and there is no such thing as a good war either. So again, commence your ranting.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:09 pm  Post subject:   
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2,996 * people died from the attack on 9-11-2001. More innocents will undoubtedly be killed unless something is done, and we are currently in a state of forward motion. We can't just sit and let stuff happen. Some things just can't be ignored or avoided, sadly enough. Not many will disagree with you when you say there is no such thing as a good war, but that's beyond the point.

Why can't people have a simple faith in our own country? I just don't understand it sometimes...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:24 pm  Post subject:   
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BlackDth, it's not that I don't have faith in out country...I'm not sure what it is...but to me, in the end, everything seems all for nothing....not much will be gained from staying or leaving Iraq...the end result is more bloodshed and no peace will ever be established. I know how many were killed on September 11th, I look out my window everyday and I'm reminded of it. It's a shame though, that so many people have to die to causes and ideals that will never be met.

I believe in our country, just not as much as I used to...Not really sure why though. And to avoid a 9/11 rant, I'll keep mum as it's a very sensitive topic with me. I think our country needs to straighten out it's ideals a bit and what not. But what I think won't change what's happening. I don't want to start an arguement or stray off topic even more than we already have so I'm just gonna leave it at that. :china

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:01 am  Post subject:   
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See, here's the problem. There are people out there, people that hate the United States, people whose sole purpose for living is to kill as many Americans as possible. Leaders like Bin Ladin and Saddam brainwashed thousands and thousands of their people to spite us in every way. We wouldn't be in war right now if there were no people like this. We want peace, Vix. The problem is if we do nothing, if we don't innitiate war, if we don't continue to stay in war, we run the risk of destruction to ourselves all because people out there are insane. It sucks, but we're in a fight for our lives. The biggest quirk against the war is that too many people are dying. Too many people are going to die either way, so we might as well fight for our lives instead of just letting them kill us. That's why fighting is for a purpose, it's about integrity. There is no integrity in backing down and letting them bring the fight to our doorstep. Could you imagine if all that warfare was brought on US soil, where when you look out your window you're no longer reminded of 9/11, but rather you're witnessing horror? The old saying is to "pick your poison." Kill the fuckers before they kill us seems to be the best choice.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:26 am  Post subject:   
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I don't think we'll e out in less than a decade, but if we succeed, in helping to set up a stable, democratic state in Iraq, well, the impact could be far reaching. :yes
It might be a slim chance, but a little chance is better than no chance. And stranger things have happened, to be sure. :yes

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:58 am  Post subject:   
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i believe this war is nothing but nam all over again, I am also a 100% sure that even when we brings our troops back home that absolutly nothing will change. Many americans will wake up each morning in both fear that there going to be attacked or our so called non elected "president" is going to lead us in a mindless war. I hate how this country is world empire yet nobody has the strength to trust one another. my ass is going to canada, have fun living in pain is misery in the land of the free and the home of the brave.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:05 am  Post subject:   
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Why can't people have a simple faith in our own country? I just don't understand it sometimes...


Faith in your country? And just what the hell is your country? It is technically just a body of land and water that is known as America and is under control of your government. Have faith in your country? Your country isn't alive, it can't do shit. That is down to your government, and governments can and do fuck up. Blind faith in your government is NEVER a good idea.

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See, here's the problem. There are people out there, people that hate the United States, people whose sole purpose for living is to kill as many Americans as possible. Leaders like Bin Ladin and Saddam brainwashed thousands and thousands of their people to spite us in every way. We wouldn't be in war right now if there were no people like this. We want peace, Vix. The problem is if we do nothing, if we don't innitiate war, if we don't continue to stay in war, we run the risk of destruction to ourselves all because people out there are insane. It sucks, but we're in a fight for our lives. The biggest quirk against the war is that too many people are dying. Too many people are going to die either way, so we might as well fight for our lives instead of just letting them kill us. That's why fighting is for a purpose, it's about integrity. There is no integrity in backing down and letting them bring the fight to our doorstep. Could you imagine if all that warfare was brought on US soil, where when you look out your window you're no longer reminded of 9/11, but rather you're witnessing horror? The old saying is to "pick your poison." Kill the fuckers before they kill us seems to be the best choice.

So being attacked by a group of Muslim extremist militants belonging to Al Qaeda mainly operating in Afghanistan is a perfectly good reason to declare war on a country that couldn't have less to do with said attack? Bullshit. You're killing the wrong fuckers.

On the subject of exit, well America is up to their necks in shit now, and leaving isn't an option. This is quickly turning into another Vietnam.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:06 am  Post subject:   
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even if i'm against occupation of irak... US can't take their troops outta there... irak would be a complete caos... so i vote minimal forces in there

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There isn't one. Bush didn't think that far ahead. He cared about one thing, getting Saddam out of Iraq. His simple-mindedness (or single-mindedness if you're pro-Bush) didn't allow for much thinking beyond that. Remember Bosnia? Iraq is like Bosnia, except with people who hate us more. We've been in Bosnia for 10 years and by all accounts, the old rivalries and a full blown civil war can resume there within a few weeks - expect longer with Iraq. Even with the best assessment from the CIA, there will only be a "tenuous stability" in Iraq over the next year. The U.S can't hope to make any clean exit from a place with so many different denominations of Islam each following their own warlord - it's impossible. So yeah, it's multiple years - probably two presidents after Bush. Then some sort of side event will happen that will allow us to "save face" (some tenuous treaty, some UN force will come in, etc.) and pull out of a half-strength contry with a quarter-strength government, just like Vietnam. But don't expect that for at least 3 years, and I'd wager it'll be more like a decade before we're out.




Agree totaly... and if i'm not mistaken bush said in an interview he didn't thought that saddam's troops (or whoever they are) would have striked so hard after he was captured, so gondee's right for me


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:33 am  Post subject:   
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Iraq is a quagmire. Right now, there is no exit strategy becuase we can't possibly move our troops out without destabilizing the entire region. We're stuck there.

PD~ wrote:
There have been very few mistakes made, and given the situation, that's a great thing. Why aren't all Americans excited we're kicking ass? We're such pussies as a whole (no pun intended) that it's shameful.


Mistakes have been made - as in underestimating the feistiness of the underground movements. There has been no real progress in stabilizing Iraq. The Iraqi interim-PM has disclosed reports of terrorists groups flooding into Iraq. But the troops are unable to ferret them out. Their constant success with kidnappings and suicide bomb strikes continues to demoralize the people of Iraq. If that doesn't turn around our troops will never get out.
Bush is starting to catch flak from his own party about the war now.

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There are people out there, people that hate the United States, people whose sole purpose for living is to kill as many Americans as possible. Leaders like Bin Ladin and Saddam brainwashed thousands and thousands of their people to spite us in every way. We wouldn't be in war right now if there were no people like this. We want peace, Vix. The problem is if we do nothing, if we don't innitiate war, if we don't continue to stay in war, we run the risk of destruction to ourselves all because people out there are insane.


Using pre-emptive attack strategies will not change this mindset either.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:59 am  Post subject:   
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crail wrote:
i believe this war is nothing but nam all over again, I am also a 100% sure that even when we brings our troops back home that absolutly nothing will change. Many americans will wake up each morning in both fear that there going to be attacked or our so called non elected "president" is going to lead us in a mindless war. I hate how this country is world empire yet nobody has the strength to trust one another. my ass is going to canada, have fun living in pain is misery in the land of the free and the home of the brave.


Our so-called non elected president? Um, if I'm not mistaken, I believe he was elected, that's why he's in office. You know, by winning the most electorial votes and all. And by the way, if we suffer, then Canada suffers... there's your ripple effect.

Ouroboros, you're just ignorant, man. Your statements are not relivant nor valid, it's just a ramble trying to pick apart technicalities when everyone else knew what I was getting at. From this point on, I will no longer acknowledge anything you say because you do not contribute to the conversation because you don't know what you're talking about.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:40 pm  Post subject:   
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PD~ wrote:
Ouroboros, you're just ignorant, man. Your statements are not relivant nor valid, it's just a ramble trying to pick apart technicalities when everyone else knew what I was getting at. From this point on, I will no longer acknowledge anything you say because you do not contribute to the conversation because you don't know what you're talking about.


Care to explain? All my points were perfectly valid, and I don't think the justification of a war is a technicality. I know bloody well what I'm talking about thank you.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:54 pm  Post subject:   
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Bacalhau wrote:
even if i'm against occupation of irak... US can't take their troops outta there... irak would be a complete caos... so i vote minimal forces in there


I voted keep the full force there cause if the minimal force is wiped out whos going to deffend the contry from a fanatical regime that could come into power but...If Bush hadn't started the god damned war in the first place we wouldn't be having this probem now would we and we wouldn't have made as many muslim enemies eather

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:01 pm  Post subject:   
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Witch King wrote:
Bacalhau wrote:
even if i'm against occupation of irak... US can't take their troops outta there... irak would be a complete caos... so i vote minimal forces in there


I voted keep the full force there cause if the minimal force is wiped out whos going to deffend the contry from a fanatical regime that could come into power but...If Bush hadn't started the god damned war in the first place we wouldn't be having this probem now would we and we wouldn't have made as many muslim enemies eather


It wouldn't have mattered if Bush was president, Clinton was president, my dog was president, etc... Congress voted to go to war and when all of Congress speaks, the president will almost always listen. Of course Bush also wanted to go to war, but I'm getting sick and tired of people thinking it's one man's fault. Bush is not to blame all by himself for the war in Iraq, it was going to happen no matter what. When all the elected officials want something, that's what we're going to get. So, blame your local senators and represenatives as well. Blame Bill Clinton. Blame John Kerry. Blame your parents for voting. Blame yourself for voting. The point is, it's everyone's fault, not JUST Bush's, and since the majority wanted it, then I don't think there should even be blame, I think it was the right thing to do, so in fact it was a good decision in my eyes.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:04 pm  Post subject:   
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But couldn't Bush had vetoed the plan and be done with it there even though he was the one that wanted to go to war?

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