Nad, you clearly don't know what you're talking about and anyone that even knows half about what's going on can see that, so I don't really have much more to say to you because it would be like talking to my computer screen. Stole the election my ass.

Alp, if you knew me and you were around me enough, you would hear the dumbest shit come out of my mouth, it doesn't make me stupid. Just because Bush doesn't know a saying or can't pronounce the name of some foreign leader that has five vowels in a row doesn't make his political mind any more dumb. The guy likes to use slang, he likes to make jokes and kid in "casual" interviews because he's a happy man, you hammer him for looking stupid sometimes. I think it's great that he can talk to us like a normal person rather than trying to act "high and mighty" at all times. He acts like a leader when he needs to and he can give the country comfort with warmth and humor when he needs to.

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PD~

That's by far the dumbest argument I've ever read.

Besides AOSO, even to write something down like "Kill all the christians" implies that you wouldn't have a problem with "killing all the buddhists, moslems, ...". Which is the exact explanation why you are a fanatic, and in no ways better than any other religious fanatic, your president is fighting war against.

Not to mention the revelation of his wife's now-billion dollar trust. Many of the lower-income Democrats see him as a Republican in disguise.



Which would be dumb. Hilary would be awful in office. I'm all in favor of a female running for President - just NOT HER.



http://www.ctj.org/pdf/gwbdata.pdf

Look at where all those tax cuts are benefitting the most - the top 1%. How is he helping middle-class America? And most of the Democrats won't admit it because they're benefitting just as much. I'm sure several are hoping for a Bush re-election and Republican-controlled Congress so the cuts can be made permanent without them having to look bad to their party or constituents doing so.

The jobs being created are not paying comprable to the ones that have been lost / sent overseas. It's not a good thing in the long run - it'll only further draw the lines of resentment across income levels.




Hyperbole PD? You're better than this.



Which is different from the current how? The reason there's a shortage of teachers is the low pay for all the stuff they have to deal with in their work. No Child Left Behind has only made it worse. By tying FUNDING in with standardized testing, it only further encourages minimal requirement instruction and test-training for the sole reason of fiscal survival. It isn't helping our schools prepare the young for their future anymore.




I call bullshit. You're flaming people who think for themselves? Even facts can be spun to produce a desired effect. It's all in how they're presented. If you want to be a spoon-fed sheep go right ahead.




Kerry was a lousy choice - it's 2000 all over again with two utter crap candidates. I don't think there's been an election in my time of franchise (1992 - present) where I've had to look at the candidates and actually think of which one is better, not which one is worse.




Put the pipe away, and pull out some proof of these statements. You're sounding more and more like a Republican campaign manager every time you post.

And AOSO - I would run for President but I'm not of age to serve in that capacity. But "Kill all the Christians" is a bit excessive, don't you think? And how far are we from trying to foster a "Kill all the Muslims" mentality?

cba - be careful calling people fanatics. Devotion and fanatacism are two different beasts entirely. I don't think either PD of AOSO qualify as fanatics - just devoted to their opinion, which happens to differ.

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If it hadn't been the "Kill ..."-argument I wouldn't have called him a fanatic. Btw it was meant as food for thoughts. As long as you only see one side of the medal, you never know the whole story.
And I didn't call PD a fanatic.

Well, I'm the dumbest person here, what do you expect? Yes, I would have problem. I'm just expecting that either they'll come and kill me, or the end of the world will come and save me from such. That's just how I think, and no there won't be any killing other religions. Throughout most history which religion has suffered the most? Anyway, off the religion topic. I just think Bush is the best man for the job. That's just my opinion. Why do I have to prove and be judged by each word that comes from my mouth? I'm speaking in opinion not in a debating fashion. Sorry, I even looked at this thread. I just wanted to kinda support Bush, but it's apparent that my opinion isn't welcome.

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Every other than the christian.

And yes I'm sorry for going offtopic. It just hurted my eye to read that argument.
I won't comment on voting a US-president, because it's not my vote that counts.

OH MY DEAR SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH YOU. I don't mean this in a condescending fashion, but seriously AOSO, grow the fuck up!

Sorry.. When someone insults me I lose my head. If Bush, Kerry, or whoever wins I'll be fine with it. It doesn't matter to me anymore. This my full opinion, please don't insult, switch my words, or debate on what I just said. I don't wish to debate this post. Sorry again.
*Just my opinion*

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Okay now I see the advantages of the US-election system.

A lot of people are impatient as well. Keep in mind that Clinton was given 8 years to screw everything up, you think Bush can fix it all in 4? See, you people harp on the negatives so much that you're not thinking about what's going to happen if Bush gets another 4 years. The education plan takes time, it's not done at the snap of a finger. The tax cuts take time to settle in. You should recognize the signs of everything turning around. Read a newspaper, read the statistics of things happening, read about your economy and compare it to 4 years ago (incline to decline). See, the true works of a president aren't recognized until roughly the 6th year after his first election. Look at the Clinton administration. All his goods started overflowing in 1998 where the economy was sky high (thanks to the computer industry booming). The problem with switching parties for presidents is that it takes a full term just to try to change everything around instead of keeping it the way it is and running with it, and that's where the system is flawed. I'm a middle-classed working American. Every day more that George Bush is in office, my financial life becomes a little better, my safety becomes a little more assured, the life for my kids becomes a little more hopeful. I'm not saying that because I like Bush, I'm saying that because of his works and the proof is in the pudding, what he's been doing has made my life better and I can honestly say that. Why wouldn't help the guy that works the same job as me who just happens to be a democrat? I think it's a mindset. If you showed me a democrat that could make my life better, then I would show him respect for doing a good job. The biggest harp on Bush to date is his spending. Even I agree that it's too much, but I'm not going to kill the man for it because hell, he was given a mess to clean up and then the wars didn't help, either, so take your lumps now so that we'll be better off later. This country is so divided that it makes us look bad to the rest of the world. George Bush is your leader, I don't care if you don't like him, I don't care if you think he's doing a bad job, I don't care if you can't wait until the next election to try to vote him out of office. What I do care about is that you respect the fact that he is your leader whether you wanted him to be or not, and if we all "UNITE" behind him, maybe some real works can get done. The same with any president after him, liberal, moderate, or conservative. And any non-American, I don't want to hear, "He's not my leader." Clearly I wasn't talking to you.

Eminem said it best... this is the "Divided States of Embarrassment."

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PD~

I rail on anything I see as regressive or plain dumb.




The education plan is not fixing the problem, it's aggravating it. Until something is done to get away from encouraging test-training things are not likely to improve.




Which are also flawed - did you look at the chart?




You can't. 4 years ago was when the bubble was still full and a majority of economists were waiting for it to burst, which it did in 2001. Technically, the economy was better in 2000.




Explain how Bush intends to repair the deficit which now stands at almost 5 trillion when he started with a surplus of roughly the same amount.




I'm not going to argue this point because I agree with it. I think Presidents should get 6 year terms, limited to two.




I'm a lower-classed working American. Every day more that George Bush is in office, my financial life doesn't seem to change, I don't really feel any more safe, and I can't afford to have kids.




Then I applaud you and the good decisions you have made and the fortune that has come with it. But is that Bush's hands working or your own?



Which is has been since the beginning. Party A has ideology Y. Party B has ideology Z. Too many people put party ahead of intelligent decisions.



No - he's had a turbulent term of office and handled it poorly. We won't be better off later if current trends continue. If he doesn't slow down spending (assuimg he wins re-election) then the deficit will reach a level the economy cannot manage.




No. I've worked with enough idiot bosses to know better than that. You don't follow the leader just because he's the leader. Otherwise you get to the cliff and never know to stop before falling off. I will NOT show respect for incompetence or favoritism.





You dismiss their opinions too easily.



I'd be more embarrassed if we weren't. As long as people aren't afraid to speak out on things they see as wrong - no matter how crazy it may sound, and you all know there are some true loonies out there - then I'll still be a proud American. Even if I dislike the man in charge.

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he admited to binge drinking and cocane abuse durring that period in time

yea i know

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SSX3 Online Name = Xeleration

Mrmarcus, you addressed everything I said way too extremely. Did you ever stop to think that maybe it's not the president who's in the wrong, it's the too many masses of citizens that want different things. This was not the plan of our founding fathers. They had differences back then, but never would they have drempt the disparity in opinion that we have now. It doesn't matter who's in office, there is going to be a lot of people that don't like what's going on. The next president is going to have similar things said about him/her. So will the president after that and the president after that because you can't please everyone who is anyone. Mrmarcus, you have an extremely negative attitude. I'm saying that we should rally together and you immediately disregarded that statement saying it can't work. Well of course it's not going to work because of all the people who think like you do won't allow it to happen. "United States" should mean something. People take the word "freedom" for granted thinking that it means we should be able to do whatever we want. So many people are ungreatful and negative. It really angers me. I'm so happy to be living here. Even when Clinton was pulling his shananagans and I was unhappy about a lot his decisions, it didn't affect my happiness for living here and I still respected him as president, just not as a man. I'm angry just writing this because I can't believe how many people are "Me, me, me, I, I, I." The only thing that divides this country is not who the president is, it's the people who just want to get on a leader because he can't please both you and your neighbor at the same time. If I like black and you like white, the president can't choose grey, he has to stick with what makes the country its MOST functional, and at the moment, the country is at its MOST functional. If we tried to do it a different way, say with less spending and all that other crap that you have been mentioning mrmarcus, then the country would be more to shit. If you were our leader, we'd be in trouble because what you think should be right will have many ill-affects that you would have never thought about. Our leaders are empowered for a reason. They are capable of these decisions, we aren't. They know the ins and outs of every possible scenario. It's not like Bush pushes all the buttons by himself. There are thousands of advisors along with Congress full of democrats and republicans alike who all weigh in on all the decisions. No one is good enough to lead by himself.



And so what if Bush did those things in college. Hell, I have a DUI. When I'm 50 years old, are people going to point the finger at me because of my mistake at 19? He did drugs and he drank. He didn't become president until 40 years later. I'm sure he matured, people.

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PD~

ok, first off, ill admit that i would have voted for Bush if i was 18 when Clinton was booted from office... but from what Bush has done during his presidency, i personally dont trust him anymore. everyone has their facts, but i have my opinion, and so i see this as an opinion post: post your opinion, dont listen to other ppl, then get in a heated debate where no one wins = completely pointless...

but, back to the poll, Kerry isnt our best alternate... but hes better than Bush... i would have voted neither, too.

come election day, we'll just see how this pans out...

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PD most everyplace ive heard it says it takes 3 years not 6 and most anyone whos ever been in any sort of finaical job or industry monitering says that a change that will have effect will happen within the first few months saying it takes 6 (it must be six now cause when people said it was three and stuff was still shit they had to back peddle) is just very very sad and very very false


and how preytell did clinton screw stuff up (and if it really does take 6 years as you say look at how things were when clinton first too k office that was the prime active time according to you of the same flawed trickledown theory of reagon that bush is useing now)

Okay, I want to know something. I've been hearing more frequently than I care to that neither Kerry nor Bush is a favorite to anyone, but why on Earth would you think Kerry would be BETTER than Bush? He's lied about almost everything and he's not even in office yet. Usually the lies don't come out until after you're president. What's even more sad is that his own party hates his guts. So why would he be better again? If taxes through the roof, higher gas prices, welfare increases, the dropping of funds towards military, the overspending to the teachers' union, inflation at an all-time high without wages being increased, the legalization of gay marraige and marijuana and more abortion clinics, the complete disconnection of overseas military allowing other nations to become stronger towards us, and one ugly motherfucker to boot is better, then by God, I'm living in backwards world. And yes, these are Kerry's proposals out of his own mouth. Do you even watch his speeches or do you just assume what he's going to do?

EBT, Clinton's economy went through the roof, there's no denying that. And why did it? One word: Computers. I could have been president and sat on my ass and because of computers, I would have had a tremendous economy as well. Also, I said it takes 6 years to see the true mark (or results) of a president, that doesn't mean that after 3 years like you have said that you wouldn't see the improvements or non-improvements if that's the case. Read a newspaper once in awhile and read about our economy right now compared to 3 years ago. Read about what it's doing. How many times does the media have to tell you that the economy is on a steady incline before you actually believe that it's one a steady incline? And has anyone noticed that gas prices have gone down by $0.35 in the last 3 weeks?

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PD~

PD~, I have to comment on your notion that everyone should rally behind our leader. It is our responsibility, being citizens of a (partly) democratic nation, to question whatever choice our leaders choose to take on a matter. Just as all the different sections of government keep each other in check, we, too, as a people, have a responsibility to keep the government itself in check. Blindly following it for the sake of getting things done will never work on a long-term basis. When the nation is in crisis, it can be a good thing, like the months after 9/11. But it is now 2 and a half years after 9/11. There should be a balance of power not only inside the government, but between the people and the government, as well. If we did not uphold our role, we would be heading towards a 1984-like catastrophe.

I agree with you, Elevation. However, that's not what we do. We don't stop at just questioning or petitioning or voicing our opinions. We tear everyone we disagree with a new one and hate is spread like wildfire and then we all point the finger at the president, not being able to wait long enough to get him out of there only so that we can do the same to the next poor bastard that steps up to the plate to take what I consider the worst (well paid) job in America. The country isn't going to work when half of us (and it will always be half of us, just depending on what side) are blasting our leader. We'll do the same to the next one. If it's a democrat, the republicans are gonna whine and cry. We should be better than that, but we're not. I'm proposing what we should be all about, not what we actually are, and that's why this country is in constant disarray.

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PD~

I've thought that about somw of your replies as well.



With the size of population, it's nigh impossible to get two people randomly chosen who agree down the line on everything.



Which is the way it should be. There are no perfect people - just the right people in the right spot at the right time.




Exactly.




I'm pessimistic by nature - primarily due to the fact I end up being right about most things.




And what defenition of "freedom" would you prefer?




This is a failure of society. In the majority of areas, individual achievements are placed above team achievements. There is a sense of competition involved in many facets of normal life, which tends to engender a "me-first" attitude. It's only gotten worse.




I get on leaders who are incompetent and do not deserve their posting.




Bold statement. Terribly incorrect though. I'm very aware of Newton's Third Law of Motion, which applies to a lot more than just physics.

I guess that means you won't be in my Cabinet?



Perhaps but as executive officer he is empowered with the responsibility of having final say on many of those decisions. And he's used that judgment poorly.




One thing we'll agree on. I don't care what they did when they were 17-22 (notable felonies excepted). Most people do dumb things they regret later at that age period. I got tired of hearing about Clinton's marijuana habit he had at that age because is it really relevant to his ability to run the government?



Except for Bush who has been hiding a lot of things under "executive privilege." The amount of obfuscation in this administration has been very very worrying.




I doubt he's that dumb.



Funny - didn't that very thing just happen a couple of months ago?




What do you have against teachers? Or is it unions?



Wages haven't been increasing during Bush's term. The only reason there hasn't been inflation is the sagging economy and Greenspan's constant lowering of the Prime Rate.




What's wrong with those? Is gay people marrying so evil that it'll turn the country on it's end? Is marijuana any worse than tobacco or alcohol? How many rape victims would you have flee to the back alleys again?



That's going to happen anyways. Unless the next president can fix the foreign policy damage done by the alienation caused by the split on Iraq.



I don't listen to campaign speeches because both candidates are full of shit. I'll do my research the week leading up to the election and make my decision then.

And you call me extremist - you're a regular doomsayer PD. I can sum up your posts in one sentence:





Your view is unacceptable to me.

So I agree to disagree.

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The sagging economy, mrmarcus? Sorry, out of all that you wrote, that one jumped out because you are so far wrong with this point. The economy is rapidly increasing and it's holding steady.

Also, gas prices go up every summer, that's the nature of the beast. Kerry is proposing that the average price of gas goes up $0.50/gallon.

Bush may be excutive officer, but it's a little something called separation of powers that grants him only 1/3rd total power, so you're giving him credit for more power than he actually has.

Bush is hiding a lot of things as an election tactic. Sure, it's a pretty shitty way of doing things, but that's what politicians do to win and we as citizens are left out. That's something that will never change, it's not just Bush.

I didn't say Kerry was dumb if he taxes us extremely high. That's just a democrats way of looking at things. We pay the government money and they'll in turn spend it the way they see fit rather than us getting to keep our own money and spending it how we see fit. Kerry has already proposed several tax increases that would hit hard in a hurry.

If you pay too much money to the teachers' union, what happens? They don't work as hard because they are protected by the union and by tenure. Bush keeps proposing that teachers take tests to be qualified and for whatever reason, it's just not going through. Why do you think the teachers want Kerry to win? Because he'll take all the tax dollars and raise the salary of teachers, who in turn won't try any harder because they know that they don't have to. Also in turn, it will make more lazy people want to become a teacher becasue they'll see that it pays better and that it's not all that hard (I'm not including every teacher, I've had some great teachers who taught me very valuable things and tried because they cared... but let's be honest, that's not really the case for all teachers or even most teachers).

Alan Greenspan is killing this country, democrats and republicans alike, so mentioning him doesn't really represent an arguement towards Bush. Besides, Kerry already said he isn't going to increase wages because of Bush's overspending, but inflation will occur. So, here's what you have... people making the same money, but everything in price going up (along with taxes). Not a good scenario. Let's face it, if Clinton didn't dick around, he could have easily solved a lot of overseas problems and there would have been a much better chance of avoiding war, which in turn would have stopped the overspending from happening. If you want to blame Bush, then blame Clinton as well.

Yes, gay marraige will turn the country against it each other. Wouldn't you agree that the gay community is a very small percentage of the overall communtiy? And out of all the non-gays, most people don't particularly want to see that kind of stuff. It will only bring more hate towards the gays if they can start tying the knot.

Marijuana is not worse than tobacco or alcohol. So instead of legalizing marijuana, we should do something about the other two. I know that's never going to happen, but that doesn't mean that we should just give in and go for the trifecta. That's pretty weak minded if you ask me.

I'm not completely against abortion. Sometimes there would be way too much complication for the mother and she may die. Only in medical terms should a woman be able to abort her child. Any other way is just irresponsible. I know, rape victems never wanted to have the child, but that doesn't mean to just kill the baby. Put it up for adoption. Too many teenagers are having sex and going to free clinics to flush out their insides just so they don't have to "deal" with, only to go back to having sex again thinking it won't happen to them twice. It does happen. I know someone that has had that happen. Also, aborting a child increases the chance of the woman never being able to give birth again. Mrmarcus, we don't just legalize stuff despite moral issues, there are too many mental and physical health issues as well.

There's no alienation in Iraq. The people there were liberated and they rejoiced in the streets. Now they have a new government and leader put in place and everything will run so much smoother. And no, countries will not get stronger towards us so long as we fund our military properly to handle overseas business. Look what happened with Lybia. They had WMDs and because we were there, they turned them over to us. If we weren't there, they'd still have them with who knows what they were planning to do with them. It's not just there. We deal with N. Korea next. Would you prefer we just leave them alone? I hope we live to see 10 years from now then if that's the case.

Since my view is unacceptable to you, then clearly you want a world of chaos because my view doesn't.

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PD~

you missed my point entirly PD and the pint beign that the exact same economic tatctits that bush is useing now reagan and bush Sr used and even after 8 years had driven the economy in to the ground why should it work this time

as to the teacher thing are you aware of how hard it is to bevcome a teacher and how shity it pays i am i was a music education major with an infechis on HS level teaching let me tell you between havint to speend between 5 or 6 years for my BACHOLORS degree (well part of htat was the music departments fault for makeing a 160 hour deprogram but the regular teaches degress wernt THAT much less still a 5 year endevor) and a base pay rate of about 20K i decided it wasnt going to be worth the stress you talk as if anyone can just walk in on off the street and teach without anyone ever looknig at them at all thats simply not true you have to renew the certificate every 3 ro 5 years based on a varity of criteria youve got countya nd distrcit staff stairing down youe neck every second of your workday and youve got to contend with pointless worthless standardized tests that hold more sway than any actual knowledge of a subject raiseing teachers salries tot he point that its competative with privet schools and the university system so we acutaly get teachers worth having in public schools and that the few poor good teachers that DO exists can have more for there chairty than just a warm gooy feeling


and remember PD even the founding fathers said (fraknlin i belive) that it was the duty of the majority to protect and safeguard the rights of the minority NOT to strip them away

EBT, it was Reagan's economy that blossomed during the Clinton administration. It wasn't the Clilnton administrations' doing. The downward spiral that we went in after the Clinton administration was because of the Clinton adminitstration. What's so hard to understand about that? Bush Sr. had a war to deal with, so Reagan's economy was put on hold until Clinton came into office.

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PD~

Show me some numbers proving this.




Last time I checked, March wasn't summertime.




You haven't noticed how blurred this has come with the recent presidents.




It doesn't mean I have to like it either.



Most of his tax increases would only hit the top 15 % in this country.



No it isn't. Teachers should be paid more, the salaries I've seen pale in comparison to the work they are expected to do. Most states have exams and tests that are required to teach in the state. I've seen Virginia's and it's very thorough and difficult.




Greenspan kept the economy from collapsing because the rate decreases allowed the large-item market (cars, homes, luxuries) to remain accessable to the middle and lower classes. Otherwise loan rates would have prevented many from purchasing a new house or the new car.


L

I've never let Clinton off that hook. He had at least three chances to capture bin Laden and passed on all three. Would it have avoided 9/11 and the aftereffects of it? Don't know. It might have hastened things - it might have never happened. But Bush has caused greater foreign tension in his term than any President before him going back to Kennedy and the Cuban Missile Crisis.




Interesting view. I would wager the community is larger than either of us imagine.



I'd rather see it legalized and regulated and have the money going to busting pot growers in their basement actually go to stopping the traffic in harder stuff.




I've read three stories in the past two months about babies abandoned in bathroom toilets and trash bins. I know people are stupid when it comes to teenage sex and children - I knew two very bright girls in high schol who had babies and watched their life end at that point.
The problem is it seems that lawmakers don't want to make those provisions. With rape, there are a lot of psychological effects on the victim. Carrying a fetus to term only makes it worse. How would you like to see the result of that level of violation every day for the rest of your life? And the Partial-Birth Abortion ban passed last year left out the provisions for incest and the health of the mother.




Don't be so sure. The country has to be stabilized first. As long as the insurgents are bombing on a daily basis it won't be stable.



I'd like to see a little more diplomacy and less of Teddy Roosevelt's big stick policy.



Once again, exaggeration. You automatically assume everything that isn't within your viewpoint is going to cause the world to end. Ergo, if Bush is not elected, the US will go to total shit with gays humping on the street, terrorists will be blowing up shopping malls and schools, everybody will be poor because the government will take everything as tax dollars, and we'll hit another great depression.

Get off your high horse. I'm done with you in this thread - it's like talking to a parrot that learned from a broken record.

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Show me numbers proving the economy isn't on the upside. I read a newspaper everyday and I see it everyday. All you have to do is the same.

Look, no matter what you try to say about the gas and when and where it goes up or down, just add $0.50 at all times of the year and that would the gas under Kerry. As much as I have to drive, I can't afford that.

I have noticed how blurred the separation of powers has become because Clinton abused the hell out of it.

No, you don't have to like electorial tactics, which means you'll never like elections. That's just how they go. I think you just like to nag Bush like so many others do. He fits the same category as every incumbant before him.

Democrats are for protecting the middle-class working Americans. They will rip out 40% from the top 10%, but in turn it affects the lower-class because they won't see any of their money coming back. The middle will sit pretty and the lower and upper will be upset. No one should have to pay a higher percentage than the next person. It's called equal rights.

I'm glad you've seen Virginia's tests for qualifying teachers. So what's your point? Georgia's test is rather simple and you don't even need a bachelors to be a middle school or elementary school teacher. I have a friend whose girlfriend is an up and coming teacher. She said that the hardest part about it all was getting classes prepared, not actually becoming qualified.

Yeah, Greenspan kept Clinton's economy from collapsing. We're just now starting to see the effects of Bush's economy. Why does everyone think it's immediately Bush's fault about the economy the second he took office? He can't change everything that fast. It's a direct effect from Clinton.

The gay community is not biger than either of us imagine. It's pretty large, but on a whole, it's not that big.

I agree with you that legalizing marijuana would help decrease the use of it, but I don't like the message it sends the youth of America, saying it's okay to do it.

You mentioned you've read three stories of girls leaving babies in bathrooms. That's not a flaw of an abortion law, that's highly irresponsible and sick minded people.

You just to conclusions too often. You're not even giving Iraq a chance, you just assume the worse, but then again, you did say you're a pessimist.

You'd like to see a little more diplomacy just like everyone else in America would, but the other dangerous countries could give two fucks about diplomacy. We have to stoop to their level because we can't bring them up to ours. They hate us that much.

A small part of me wishes Bush would not get re-elected because I want to see what this country turns into with his successor.

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"I'm the bullet crack in your diamond pimp cup."


PD~